# Suicide by train **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 20, 2013, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-train/653421 "2013-03-20T03:13:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![minor7flat5](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/minor7flat5/32/258_2.png) [@minor7flat5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minor7flat5)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-train/653421/21 "2013-03-20T17:26:40Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > I actually think those two statements are worlds apart. Nobody in this thread has said that all people who commit suicide are assholes; just those people who do so in such a way as to traumatize (and in some cases, injure and kill) others. I have a lot of sympathy for people suffering from mental health problems, and a lot of sympathy for people who are suicidal. I don’t have much for people who decide that their only option is to go out while traumatizing and injuring as many other people as possible. And I agree with you fully on the dislike for involving others. A couple of years ago I went for a week long course in Manhattan that required commuting on NJ Transit. Everything was fine until the second or third day, when a [woman jumped in front of a Acela express train at my home station](http://andiamnotlying.com/2010/sandwiches-booze-and-digital-detachment-suicide-by-acela-in-hamilton-nj/). We sat in a stuffy train stopped just outside of NY for hours, 40 miles away from the incident. When they eventually let us go, the train wasn’t allowed to stop at my station and they took us all to Trenton. We arrived at close to 10pm instead of 5:30. I was not happy at all. And I felt sympathy for the engineer as well as the rescue workers who had to clean the bits and pieces of her body off of the platform and tracks. She burned in an indelible memory in the minds of the rescue workers and train crew. My hope is that this dislike that we have for such events doesn’t shut down lines of communication within our sphere of influence. One other question I frequently ask suicidal people is “Do your parents know how you feel?” (or wife or husband or kids or …) Many people say “no” and possibly “they wouldn’t understand” or “they think everything is perfectly fine in my life” or something like that. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-train/653421/22 "2013-03-20T17:34:43Z")
> [@phouka](#): > > You know, that problem is not the fault of those attempting suicide. It’s the fault of a system which doesn’t supply adequate resources to victims of depression or to healthcare providers. > > Mental illness is the leading cause of suicide and suicide attempts. There are precious few resources to treat it, even when it becomes life threatening. And when it becomes life threatening - not just to the person who suffers from it, but to innocent bystanders like Rick’s friend - nobody blames the lack of education, lack of insurance coverage, lack of therapeutic choices, or lack of support for an illness that takes thousands of lives a year. > > Your friend wouldn’t complain that someone on life support during a bout of pneumonia was taking up a ventilator needed by a car crash victim. Complaining that someone’s suicide attempt didn’t take is like complaining that someone’s staph infection didn’t do the job. It’s thoughtless and cruel. > > I do not understand what drives some suicidal people to use a method that damages other human beings, but I don’t make the assumption that it’s because they’re assholes. They are broken. They are so broken that not only are they destroying themselves, they are damaging others. I don’t understand the mechanism behind that choice, but hating on them only takes away from finding a way to prevent these tragedies. Phouka, When people are that severely ignorant, trying to explain to them that the person was ill does not register with them. I also do not understand how it is they dont understand what mental illness is. It is truly baffling. And this is a board to fight ignorance. You would think there would be at least some basic understanding and education on the subject. It makes me feel as if I just wandered into a little bar somewhere in Mississippi, and stumbled across a few good old boys spouting off about how mentally ill people are really just a bunch of assholes and gay persons got that way from lack of oxygen at birth, and women never should have been allowed to vote. It is that ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-train/653421/23 "2013-03-20T17:46:35Z")
> [@minor7flat5](#): > > My concern with a statement like this is that is not far removed from the “suicide is the coward’s way out” school of thought. > > If this personal viewpoint is expressed to one’s family either explicitly or implicitly, then there is a pretty good chance that doors have been closed. > > A close family member might not feel comfortable confiding their struggles with a person who is so critical of suicide, and then one is left saying “If only I had known… Why didn’t he/she say anything?” This. ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-train/653421/24 "2013-03-20T17:50:16Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > I actually think those two statements are worlds apart. Nobody in this thread has said that all people who commit suicide are assholes; just those people who do so in such a way as to traumatize (and in some cases, injure and kill) others. I have a lot of sympathy for people suffering from mental health problems, and a lot of sympathy for people who are suicidal. I don’t have much for people who decide that their only option is to go out while traumatizing and injuring as many other people as possible. This is like saying you have sympathy for those with heart disease, so king as they dint have a heart attack in certain settings, i.e. you feel bad for them if they have a heart attack at home, or hospital but if they have the nerve to have a heart attack on a plane, and the plane has to land etc and people get upset, then that person is an asshole. He shouod have had his heart attack in a more convenient place ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-train/653421/25 "2013-03-20T17:58:49Z")
> [@Tollhouse](#): > > When people are that severely ignorant, trying to explain to them that the person was ill does not register with them. I also do not understand how it is they dont understand what mental illness is. It is truly baffling. And this is a board to fight ignorance. You would think there would be at least some basic understanding and education on the subject. Since the people in this thread haven’t said anything like what you’re implying, perhaps you should re-read their posts for comprehension. Mental illness does not completely absolve people of their responsibilities nor their ability to be assholes. It’s one factor that is used to evaluate their behavior, but it’s not carte blanche to not care what impact your actions have on others. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-train/653421/26 "2013-03-20T17:59:13Z")
Mental illness doesn’t turn you into a robot incapable of free will. Your analogy sucks. Nobody chooses when and where to have a heart attack (and if you could, I suspect most people would choose to have one in a hospital). People absolutely do choose when and where to commit suicide. I wish nobody committed suicide. I wish that people who felt suicidal can get the help that they need before getting to that point. But if you do get to that point, and then you think that it’s a great idea to give a jaunty wave and a smile to the train conductor you have just made indirectly responsible for your death, then I think you are a jackhole. Mental illness does not mean that you become completely free of responsibility for your actions. (edit: simulposted with **Telemark** ) ---
**Author:** ![yams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/848f3c/32.png) [@yams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yams)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-train/653421/27 "2013-03-20T18:09:44Z")
> [@Tollhouse](#): > > This is like saying you have sympathy for those with heart disease, so king as they dint have a heart attack in certain settings, i.e. you feel bad for them if they have a heart attack at home, or hospital but if they have the nerve to have a heart attack on a plane, and the plane has to land etc and people get upset, then that person is an asshole. He shouod have had his heart attack in a more convenient place If people could choose when to have a heart attack, this would be an OK analogy. Since, of course, people can’t actually choose when and where to have a heart attack, this is a crap analogy. love yams!! ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-train/653421/28 "2013-03-20T18:16:15Z")
Yes, ok, this further validates the ignorance. Honestly on a board that is supposed to fight ignorance and tends to be more liberal, this level of ignorance is a bit surprising. Some good in depth reading and self edication on the topic or perhaps attending a meeting somewhere such as Nami might help. ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-train/653421/29 "2013-03-20T18:25:17Z")
> [@Tollhouse](#): > > Yes, ok, this further validates the ignorance. Honestly on a board that is supposed to fight ignorance and tends to be more liberal, this level of ignorance is a bit surprising. Some good in depth reading and self edication on the topic or perhaps attending a meeting somewhere such as Nami might help. So no response to Telemark or MsWhatsit? Just a pissy response bashing the board because you gave a shitty analogy. Frankly from what I’ve read of your posts you really aren’t contributing much. ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-train/653421/30 "2013-03-20T18:26:46Z")
> [@Tollhouse](#): > > Phouka, > > When people are that severely ignorant, trying to explain to them that the person was ill does not register with them. I also do not understand how it is they dont understand what mental illness is. It is truly baffling. And this is a board to fight ignorance. You would think there would be at least some basic understanding and education on the subject. > > It makes me feel as if I just wandered into a little bar somewhere in Mississippi, and stumbled across a few good old boys spouting off about how mentally ill people are really just a bunch of assholes and gay persons got that way from lack of oxygen at birth, and women never should have been allowed to vote. It is that ignorant. Wonderful straw man construction and awesome way you tied it into homophobia and women’s suffrage. Well please forgive us poor ignorant southern Bubbas. I can understand your compassion for the mentally ill and I can also understand the frustration of others like **Rick** whose friend’s lives have been permanently scarred by a mentally ill person’s decisions. At some point people have to draw their own line on what is free will and what is uncontrollable mental illness. Being depressed doesn’t give you special rights to harm others. Lawful society may treat you different by placing you in a hospital versus a prison but it is no surprise to me that the court of opinion views someone committing murders, crimes, or acts of malice as assholes regardless their mental state. In my addition to comments in my previous post I should point out that my nurse friend had compassion towards the suicide patients but her triage logic kicked in when she would have to go to extraordinary measures to find resources to stabilize accident patients. She knew that the suicide patient had put themselves in that position and were likely to do so again upon recovery. ---
**Author:** ![yams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/848f3c/32.png) [@yams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yams)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-train/653421/31 "2013-03-20T18:28:26Z")
Edited because: Bubbadog got there first! love yams!! ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-train/653421/32 "2013-03-20T18:38:29Z")
What are ways of suicide that don’t traumatize anyone else. I presume finding the body is traumatic. Perhaps before killing oneself, you need to find a replacement actor to fill in for you for the rest of your life. I guess that it’s OK to traumatize only people you know, but don’t traumatize or even inconvenience strangers. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-train/653421/33 "2013-03-20T18:51:10Z")
This happens on my Metra line a couple of times a year. Always right before rush hour and always causes me to have to take a cab from downtown Chicago up to Evanston, which is about $35-40. If you want to kill yourself, fine. If you’re selfish enough to cause emotional pain to a poor engineer, ok. But do you really have to do it at 4pm on a weekday? Why not 1030am? Or 7pm? Or plan it for a Saturday. I don’t mind being late, but I hate having to shell out for a cab (I could take CTA but I’m usually in a race to pick up my daughter from childcare.) ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-train/653421/34 "2013-03-20T18:53:36Z")
You guys just really don’t understand mental illness. You DO NOT have free will. Nobody chooses to have a mental illness. Having a mental illness is basically doing something, _you know is wrong but you can’t stop._ Like the OCD person who has to wash their hands 100 times a day or lock the lock on their apartment 23 times. Deep down they know they don’t have to do that **but they can’t stop.** **Bubbadog** , I’m sorry but your former GF’s story, is just that, a story. Maybe she should work in a better equipped hospital or maybe she is just making shit up because she doesn’t like people with mental illness. and **MsWhatsit** > [@](#): > > You can support increased mental health care access in this country while simultaneously thinking that people who throw themselves in front of trains are raging assholes. This attitude KEEPS people who need help from seeking help. So, no you can’t do both. You really can’t. Either you want to help the mentally ill, or you think they are assholes. Calling the depressed assholes only encourages them to kill themselves. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-train/653421/35 "2013-03-20T19:01:10Z")
Yes, I can. I really can. You’re saying that I’m sending the message “don’t seek help for your problems,” but I think you’re sending the message, “if you suffer from mental illness, you are completely out of control of your own behavior and could possibly do anything, and there’s absolutely nothing you can do to stop it,” which IMO is more dangerous and also utterly full of crap. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-train/653421/36 "2013-03-20T19:12:13Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > So, no you can’t do both. You really can’t. Either you want to help the mentally ill, or you think they are assholes. No one is saying that all people with mental illnesses are assholes. No one is saying that mental illness is deserved, a sign of poor willpower, or a choice. No one is saying that our society has enough resources in place to help those with mental illness or their families. But, no one is saying that a diagnosis of mental illness gives you a free pass to do something that affects others. Those with mental illness are not helpless; they still have free will (to a degree that any of us have); and they have personalities and foibles unrelated to their mental illnesses. I know many folks with a variety of diagnosed conditions and while all of them struggle with the burden of the illness some of them are jerks as well. And they would be jerks without their illness. (And yes, there are those who have no control over their actions but they are an exception, not the rule.) The world isn’t as black and white as you’re making it out to be. I know folks who have committed suicide in ways that didn’t involve subjecting lots of people to unneeded trauma. I have great sympathy for those that killed themselves by throwing themselves in front of a train, but it doesn’t absolve them of the cruelty of their final act. The mental illness is a mitigating factor, but not a free pass. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-train/653421/37 "2013-03-20T19:14:16Z")
I’m not sending that message at all. I’m saying that people need help. And there is no shame in getting help. You seem to be saying that people who need help are assholes. Let’s just put that on a sign. “All you depressed assholes come in here and get help” You don’t understand mental illness. You have somethings you control but some things you can not control. The import thing is to get help before you become a danger to yourself and others. ---
**Author:** ![Thylacine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thylacine/32/1143_2.png) [@Thylacine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thylacine)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-train/653421/38 "2013-03-20T19:16:27Z")
I knew someone who attempted suicide by walking onto a major highway. Nobody died but she and a car were both pretty mangled and a young driver traumatised. This choice of method made no sense to anyone who knew her as she was the type who would apologise for stealing your air if she inhaled near you. We spoke about it and she was horrified that she had done that to others, she said that all she had in the moment was pain, there was nothing else, it just had to stop. Her mind didn’t even register that there were people in the cars, they were a way to make everything stop. It just got worse and worse for her and as soon as she could walk she ran. They found her remains a few years later deep in the bush. As for the guy smiling and waving - he may well have felt happy it was nearly over and assumed everyone else would be too. Making the decision is usually the painful bit, once decided there can be great joy that pain will stop. I don’t know what the answer is and I hate the damage left as much as anybody else but assuming that suicidal folks are rational enough to be assholes is a tad wacky. ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-train/653421/39 "2013-03-20T19:19:19Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > I’m not sending that message at all. > > I’m saying that people need help. And there is no shame in getting help. > > You seem to be saying that people who need help are assholes. > > Let’s just put that on a sign. “All you depressed assholes come in here and get help” > > You don’t understand mental illness. You have somethings you control but some things you can not control. The import thing is to get help before you become a danger to yourself and others. How about a PSA saying you’re only an asshole if you jump in front of a train? ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2013, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-train/653421/40 "2013-03-20T19:21:19Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > No one is saying that all people with mental illnesses are assholes. > > No one is saying that mental illness is deserved, a sign of poor willpower, or a choice. > > No one is saying that our society has enough resources in place to help those with mental illness or their families. > > But, no one is saying that a diagnosis of mental illness gives you a free pass to do something that affects others. Those with mental illness are not helpless; they still have free will (to a degree that any of us have); and they have personalities and foibles unrelated to their mental illnesses. I know many folks with a variety of diagnosed conditions and while all of them struggle with the burden of the illness some of them are jerks as well. And they would be jerks without their illness. (And yes, there are those who have no control over their actions but they are an exception, not the rule.) > > The world isn’t as black and white as you’re making it out to be. I know folks who have committed suicide in ways that didn’t involve subjecting lots of people to unneeded trauma. I have great sympathy for those that killed themselves by throwing themselves in front of a train, but it doesn’t absolve them of the cruelty of their final act. The mental illness is a mitigating factor, but not a free pass. Did you read this thread? I’m making the world out to black and white? Really? Did you read this thread. Like when you called Tollhouse an asshole. Your only other comment in this thread. Is that post showing any degree of of the multiple shades of gray or is it black and what. Tollhouse is an asshole, so is the guy who stuck his head in front a train and anyone who disagrees is an asshole. That is black and white. That is what that phrase means. Your only other post and the posts by others in this thread have a “black and white” understanding of mental illness. I’m going to go outside and get some fresh air. I’m tired of all the smoke being blown up my ass. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-train/653421.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-by-train/653421.md?page=3)