Suicide by train

[Broomstick]

@Tollhouse

Honestly to me, this sounds really self absorbed and uneducated. A person with a serious mental illness, who is in that state of mind cannot help it. Maybe a little compassion is in order? People who are that ill to begin with are not in their right mind, and the despair, or hallucinations just takes over their ability to think clearly.

Yeah, I’m really effin’ sorry crazy people use trains full of other people to kill themselves. How about we as a society provide a little more mental health care?

Meanwhile, no, I don’t have compassion for crazy people who use trains full of other people to kill themselves. It endangers those other people, it complicates their lives, and for those who get to see what a train does to a human body first hand, often to suffer nightmares about it for the rest of their lives, it really sucks.

Admittedly, I first came to this conclusion while sitting on an Amtrak watching gore slide down the car window for a couple hours while that whole circus that occurs when someone deliberately steps in front of a speeding train unfolded. My heart hardened further every time some suicide screwed up my train ride.

It’s like that guy who opened fire at a showing of a Batman movie - yeah, he’s start raving mad but I don’t feel sorry for him. I feel sorry for everyone he hurt and killed. My only feeling towards Mr. Crazy is “Can we lock that m-----f----- up for life before he hurts anyone else?”

[Idle_Thoughts]

@Tollhouse

Ok, thank you, and hopefully the posters who were not so subtle in their use of the word will cease using it.
Recently it was explained that it is ok to call a behavior an insult, but not to call a person an insult, (i.e. ok to say a behavior is assholery, but not ok to call a person an asshole) so that was what I was going by
In any case it appears there was no lack by many posters here, in using the word

I will say again, take your questions about it to ATMB and out of this thread, please. Do not continue this hijack about the rules or mod note.

[Broomstick]

@Tollhouse

When people are that severely ignorant, trying to explain to them that the person was ill does not register with them. I also do not understand how it is they dont understand what mental illness is. It is truly baffling. And this is a board to fight ignorance. You would think there would be at least some basic understanding and education on the subject.

Let’s try an analogy:

Let’s say someone has a seizure disorder. There are several possibilities here:

1. They have a seizure disorder and don’t know it - maybe it’s something that recently happened or whatever. They’re driving a car and they have a seizure and wind up dead, maybe with a few others injured/dead as well. It’s not their fault, they didn’t know. Comparable to someone sooooo mentally ill they really can’t connect to reality and kill themselves/others without being cognizant of what they do… but most suicides don’t fall into this category, certainly not any who do any planning.

2. They have a seizure disorder and try to get treatment, or at least don’t drive. They still might have a fatal seizure, or get injured/killed during a seizure (maybe they suffer a fatal fall from something). Comparable to someone who kills themself but doesn’t put others at risk.

3. They have a seizure disorder but insist on driving even if their seizures aren’t controlled. Someone who drives even though they know they have uncontrolled seizures is an asshole. They have a real illness which should be treated, but they’re still an asshole. Likewise, someone who uses a train to commit suicide is also an asshole. They are a mentally ill asshole but an asshole nonetheless. There are a multitude of other ways to kill yourself just as dead that don’t involve putting other people at risk or horrifying them. Most suicides don’t use trains, there’s nothing compelling them to do so. They could also jump off buildings or bridges or drink poison or whatever. But no, they want to use a train.

[Broomstick]

@phouka

Depression so severe it brings about suicidal impulses does not include rational thoughts or decisions. It is not rational to believe you are so worthless you should do everyone around you a favor and kill yourself. When a person gets to that point, it’s impossible to accurately judge others’ reactions. Suicidal people honestly believe that their deaths will be a relief to their loved ones. It’s not difficult to extrapolate from there that a stranger would be, at worst, unaffected by their death.

…And when my sister killed herself she chose to do so in a car parked in a garage and was thoughtful enough to post a sign on the door warning of dangerous concentrations of carbon monoxide for the inevitable first responders who showed up. She was in enough pain to kill herself, but able to safeguard others too. What does either extreme prove?

Are there people so far gone they are truly not responsible for their actions? Yes. However, I do not believe ALL suicides fall into that category. Particularly any train suicide that has to get past fences or other access barriers which do exist in many places to discourage suicides and accidents.

[Rushgeekgirl]

Do they even know for sure if it was suicide? If he was delusional he may have thought he was getting on a train when he stepped in front of it. It would explain the smile and friendly wave. He could have been experiencing a dissociative episode and didn’t realize he was actually there about to step in front of a train. He could have been deluded into thinking he could stop the train with his mind.
My entire family has been plagued with depression, anxiety, dissociative disorders and suicidal, dark, dark thoughts. The drive to run out in to traffic is very strong despite knowing I have a family that needs me. I’m on some powerfully strong anti-psychotics and anti-depressants, and that’s the only way I can control this desire to hurt myself. I have PTSD with dissociative episodes. When you’re in such a state that you’re not even sure you’re IN reality the thought of inconveniencing or even traumatizing others is waaaaaay far back in the distance. You want to care but you just don’t care. The draw to be dead and done with it is just that powerful.
But yeah I guess it would still make me an asshole if I went ahead and did it. I guess. Ordinarily I’m a very kind person but when I’m not all there, I’m not all there.

[phouka]

@Seanette

I still wonder where in this conversation, especially among those who view the mentally ill as not sufficiently human to be accountable for actions, there’s any compassion for their victims.

This is an inexcusable distortion of what I was saying.

Go ahead, Seanette. Stew in your mire of hatred and ignorance. It makes the world a better place. It prevents future tragedies like the one in the OP. It sure as hell makes you a better, more admirable person.

[Tollhouse]

It seems there are two camps here…those who feel that mental illness does not have the ability to render someone in such a state they lose their jidgement and those who know that it very well and can do that. Those who dont understand a serious mental illness can do this, feel the person who is sick is nothing more than a jerk. Thosewho understand what mental illness is, do not look at the ill person as a jerk. We look at them as a person who has a very serious illness. I never thought my grandma was an ass for having dementia and making life at times quite dificult. I knew she was ill. When we could not go on a planned trip because she got all upset and had to go to the hospital, I didnt think “what an ass she is for ruining our day” .i thought " how sad ". Apparently those who do not understand what mental illness is look at the tragic illness and subsequent death of a person as “that jerk screwed up my train ride and now I will be late”. I think Nami should set up some type of research study to study the thought process of people like this

[Rick]

@Rick

Sorry, but your guy was an asshole. Not as big an asshole as this giant asshole, but an asshole nonetheless.
If you want to off yourself, I don’t have a problem with that. But to kill other people in the process or subject a train conductor to a lifetime of nightmares, well only an asshole would do that.
Want to kill yourself? Fine go ahead, but man the fuck up and do it without endangering other people.

OK, let’s talk about this particular [del]Giant Asshole[/del] excuse me, misunderstood little flower.
Here is the Wiki page on him.

In addition, he was a known methamphetamine addict, prone to delusional behavior. At the time of the train crash, Alvarez, the father of two young children, was experiencing marital difficulties.

Police initially believed that Alvarez decided to kill himself that day, but that he changed his mind immediately before the train hit his vehicle, jumping out of the car and observing as the collision took place. He was charged with, and subsequently convicted of, 11 counts of murder with “special circumstances”. Police say following investigations indicate Alvarez may have intended to cause the crash without committing suicide. Authorities filed additional charges against him for murder with intent.[1]

Prosecutors sought the death penalty for his crimes under a seldom-used law making train wrecking, resulting in a person’s death, a capital offense.[2] This 1873[3] law was created to prosecute Old West train robbers who were known to blow up the tracks to rob a train.[4]

On June 26, 2008, Alvarez was found guilty of 11 counts of first degree murder with special circumstances and one count of arson related to the incident. He was acquitted of the train wrecking charge.[5]

So our citizen of the day was a meth addict, jumped out of the vehicle just before the crash (which pretty much invalidates any claim of no control over actions or no free will), was found sane, and convicted of 11 counts of murder with special circumstance.
Tell me again how he is not responsible for his actions, I keep getting confused.

Now compare [del]our[/del]your citizen of the day to Kenny.
Kenny was a very good friend who committed suicide almost 40 years ago. Kenny was a great guy. But he battled his demons, and after some relationship issue, he swallowed a 12 gauge. I was a pallbearer at his funeral.
Now I think Kenny took a very permanent solution to a temporary problem, I wish he had reached out, but he took his life in a way that no innocent people were harmed. I do not think less of him for taking his life. He made his choice and did it in a way that was quick, painless and harmed no one else.
I’ll raise a glass to his memory tonight.

[Seanette]

@phouka

This is an inexcusable distortion of what I was saying.

Go ahead, Seanette. Stew in your mire of hatred and ignorance. It makes the world a better place. It prevents future tragedies like the one in the OP. It sure as hell makes you a better, more admirable person.

I see no evidence of any degree of caring for those traumatized by such situations as the OP, some in this thread are so busy being sanctimoniously outraged that anyone might dare to point out that there are more victims than just the suicide or that some suicides are NOT so completely disconnected from reality as to be unaccountable for their actions.

Nice that the person who makes the choice to force another to take their life rates more caring among such sterling examples of compassion as you than the innocent forced to live with that event.

[JpnDude]

Yawnnnnn.

Suicide by train is very common and expensive in Japan. In 1995, I was on board a train that hit someone. The body was recovered and removed and the location was documented and hosed down in 30 minutes. Gotta love Japanese efficiency.

[Tollhouse]

@Rushgeekgirl

Do they even know for sure if it was suicide? If he was delusional he may have thought he was getting on a train when he stepped in front of it. It would explain the smile and friendly wave. He could have been experiencing a dissociative episode and didn’t realize he was actually there about to step in front of a train. He could have been deluded into thinking he could stop the train with his mind.
.

This is a good point, the possibility he was in a psychotic state.

[Jan_John_Cobham_Salad]

Let’s get one thing straight, if you witness a suicide, you’re not a “victim” of anything except perhaps being a sensitive little petunia, compared to the actual situation that bears relevance. Self-absorbed assholes know no bounds of human decency, god forbid you missed your 1:30 appointment to perform some banally insignificant task because ol’ Johnny asshole had the nerve to play head tetherball with a train, surely this decision was all about you :rolleyes:. Maybe you’re dead on and ole’ Johnny asshole did it intentionally as a way of showing his gratitude to that same lot of inconsiderate shitheels who aided in his decision making process throughout his life and he was merely giving society back a slice of the same pie they’ve served him with such regularity? I mean this thread only supports such a notion so it’s not that much of a reach. But a self-absorbed asshole wouldn’t take the time to delve that far into it because they’re too busy pointing towards their watch and growing irritable that they’re going to miss the horserace, the selfish bastard! I can see some of you pricks sitting there damning ole’ Johnny’s parents for raising such a foolish, cowardly dipshit. Maybe in the depths of your mind, deep down amidst your own disdain for ol’ shithead Johnny holding up your luncheon with all your old badminton chums, you’re thinking they should’ve hopped into that train with him and done a 3 for 1 deal and saved 2 more trainfulls of people the terrifying trauma of having to wait an extra 45 minutes to head uptown to daughter’s friend Emily’s 6th birthday party where that cute, petite redhead divorcee is waiting for you. I’m so sorry anyone’s perfect little universe would have to be momentarily dragged into someone elses life of insufferable torment as a mere spectator to the point that their unwitting brain was actually forced to ask themselves a question or two about it on their way to the spa or a perhaps a tennis lesson. OH, THE INDIGNITY! :eek: Give me a break with this half-assed bullshit, I thought this place was supposed to be a bastion of intelligence. Well??

Well if you’re going to kill yourself cease thought…thats where you can shove the remainder of your incredibly ignorant viewpoint right directly back up your sanctimonious ass. Consider this. Someone’s life ended tragically and you’re sitting here thinking about yourself, “oh poor little me, I saw someone’s pain today in real life, just like on the TV!” Spin that fucker as hard as you need to. 100 times out of 100, that makes you a gaping asshole, regardless of what you think about our dearly departed Johnny boy and his erroneous decision to for once and finally in his life put his own convenience ahead of yours, Mr and Mrs. stranger du jour. Love the words “innocent” and “victim” being bandied about here. Oh yeah, poor you. You’re such a victim that you’re taking a steamy shit on a freshly deceased soul for having the temerity to be an extra bump on a traintrack, yeah, you’re surely the hallmark of the battered existence in this picture.

Oh crud, now look at what I’ve done, gone and generalized a whole bunch of people I don’t know shit about. Oh silly me. :smack:

[Eyebrows_0f_Doom]

People who throw themselves in front of trains to commit suicide are assholes. Froth at the mouth all you want, it won’t change that.

[Tollhouse]

@Eyebrows_0f_Doom

People who throw themselves in front of trains to commit suicide are assholes. Froth at the mouth all you want, it won’t change that.

yes, yes…it has already been established that some people who are not up to speed or educated on what mental illness is think this way.

Its like waving a big sign or wearing a pin that says “Needs book learning” .

It would be fascinating if Nami could get a research grant to study the brains of these type of people.

[Telemark]

@Idle_Thoughts

Both of you knock off the insults in this forum.

Sorry, won’t happen again. I had a sense that I’d stepped over the line.

[EmilyG]

I wonder how you people who think that train suicide victims are ‘‘assholes’’ would feel if one of your family members committed suicide by train. If it was someone you loved, would you still think they’re an asshole?

(I’m not advocating suicide. I was just wondering.)

[Mangetout]

Why is it that people assume the only outcome of a train delay is mild inconvenience or disrupted social arrangements?

Some people on the train will be travelling to critical appointments - to work as surgeons, firefighters, or to collect important medication, or to fulfil care obligations to vulnerable people etc. Not everyone just missed a tennis game, or merely got home to a ruined dinner.

[MsWhatsit]

@EmilyG

I wonder how you people who think that train suicide victims are ‘‘assholes’’ would feel if one of your family members committed suicide by train. If it was someone you loved, would you still think they’re an asshole?

(I’m not advocating suicide. I was just wondering.)

Yes. I would be devastated, of course, but I would still think that their actions were a dick move. Many of my loved ones have been assholes at various times. Loving someone doesn’t mean you think they can never be an asshole.

[Broomstick]

@Tollhouse

It seems there are two camps here…those who feel that mental illness does not have the ability to render someone in such a state they lose their jidgement and those who know that it very well and can do that. Those who dont understand a serious mental illness can do this, feel the person who is sick is nothing more than a jerk. Thosewho understand what mental illness is, do not look at the ill person as a jerk. We look at them as a person who has a very serious illness.

Then there are those of us who do understand mental illness, and understand it is a spectrum and not a binary disorder. Mental illness does not instantly and completely render a person helpless in all situations. There are millions of people who struggle with mental illness yet are morally competent people at the same time. Painting those who understand not all mental illness is equally incapacitating and ignorant or insensitive is a gross distortion of reality.

You can also be mentally ill AND a jerk. The two states are not mutually exclusive.

[Broomstick]

@Jan_John_Cobham_Salad

Let’s get one thing straight, if you witness a suicide, you’re not a “victim” of anything except perhaps being a sensitive little petunia, compared to the actual situation that bears relevance.

Right… and if the train driver then suffers a lifetime of PTSD for seeing a human being turned into salsa right in front of him he’s not a victim at all, just overly sensitive? You’re so focused on the poor suicide you completely ignore that yes, other people can be victims, too.