Excuse me for asking, I haven’t read the entire thread, but is anyone in the thread actually proposing that?
No, nobody in the thread is proposing that. But my reading of Broomstick’s remark is that she is advocating strict legal safeguards on assisted-suicide procedures because overly lax rules could potentially leave loopholes for such murders.
I mean, AFAICT that’s a pretty standard objection to acceptance of assisted suicide, namely that in the case of an incapacitated subject and/or an unscrupulous “assister” it could too easily degenerate into plain old homicide.
^ Exactly.
There is historical precedent for “benevolent” euthanasia turning into murder down the line. Let’s not repeat that. Ever.
The Swiss will have a tough time effectively branding Suicide-Murder Pods. They’ll need a very catchy jingle for that to fly.
It has to come from the Sui Cide region of Switzerland, or it’s just a Sparkling Death Pod.
Why not just join me?
You’ll look sweet, upon the seat, of a trebuchet made for two…
I actually do think there should be controls on bodily autonomy. I don’t care how you wear your hair (or don’t, if you shave yourself bald), as an example, but I think there are circumstances where there should be some brakes or even prohibitions.
If society decides public nudity is fine I’m OK with that, but I’d insist that nudists riding public transportation keep something between their butt/crotch and a seat because no one wants to sit in your bodily leavings. I’m in favor of minimum age requirements for things like body piercing and tattooing. If someone wants cosmetic/body mod surgery I want them to be sober and fully informed when making a decision for that, and rules/licensing/regulation on the people performing the work.
My desire for strong gate-keeping on state-approved suicide is an extension of that. I don’t want people getting a tummy-tuck on whim, even more I don’t want them killing themselves on a whim. (Yes, I’d prefer no state-approved suicide at all, but apparently society is starting to vote differently on that)
I do believe in bodily autonomy, but I also believe in being fully informed prior to making a permanent change, before running a risk, and definitely prior to performing an action that would have adverse consequences for other people.
Well, it would make it less of a problem. Humans being human, and occasional shitbags, there will still be self-blame and family members blaming others (see what you made dad do! and the like) but it would definitely reduce the fall out.
People have certainly taken that route. In general, if they’re stopped before actually killing themselves society has taken steps to prevent their death and taken them to trial. So… apparently, yes, society in its current form does seem to have a veto.
That’s a completely dickish move and, to my mind, fraud and theft, but as a practical matter yes, you could do that. See above, though - if you’re stopped society might severely limit your choices and haul your butt into court.
Again - sure, as your example notes, people have used suicide for political protest. Generally, that “works” best if it’s done in a public manner, like setting yourself on fire in a busy street so passers-by are affected by the spectacle. I’m not sure quietly killing yourself would do the job.
I think part of what still bothers me about my sister’s suicide is that, first of all, while she did suffer from depression it was not unrelentingly bad - she cycled in and out of really bad, and had she not killed herself she might have cycled back out again to enjoying her life, and second, perhaps most important, had she lived longer she might have lived long enough to try some of the more recent treatments that might have worked better for her/had fewer side effects leading to less suffering on her part and more enjoyment of life. My sister’s suffering was NOT “constant”, which statement I base on what she told me on more than one occasion. While it’s true I can’t know what’s going on inside someone else’s head I do think there’s some validity to trusting their statements over a long period of time.
That is different than someone with a terminal illness who will only get worse and worse and worse… In one case recovery is possible, in the other it is not.
That’s a lot different from the suicides in my experience, which tended to be more of the “fuck you” variety. I can certainly see that exit as the lesser of two evils, even if on a visceral level I’m still not happy about it.
Wow. I’m not saying you’re particularly selfish because I don’t actually know you, but that sounds a lot like self-justification for being a totally self-centered asshole. Maybe you’re a really decent, considerate human being but I can see that viewpoint being used to excuse all sorts of nasty behaviors in a less saintly human being.
Part of being married/in a committed long-term relationship/etc. IS considering the feelings of the other party(s). That doesn’t mean being a doormat, it does mean being aware of how your actions affect the other. If you don’t do that the relationship doesn’t last. Anyone who has been in a successful relationship like that will be able to tell you of instances where they did something they weren’t very enthused about because it made the other party happy. There are limits to that, of course, but “catering” to the feelings of the other person(s) in the relationship is part of what makes that work long term. If you don’t care about that other person(s) why are you with them?
By selective quoting you have managed a stunning feat of out-of-context reportage. I can only hope that your readers don’t fall for this tactic, and will have read my entire post, and understood the quoted part in that context.
You are correct in one thing: you don’t know me.
Oh, I absolutely encourage anyone in this thread to read all posts, and to go back and read quoted posts in their full context.
I can only report my impression of you (yes, after reading this entire thread, and re-reading your posts) and state my opinion. Anyone else reading is free to agree or disagree with either of us, preferably, as I said, after reading everything relevant in full.
Modnote: This post is actually pretty insulting despite the weasel words.
Avoid this in the future. This was close to a warning.
Totally understandable. Depression, like a lot of other chronic illnesses, can have what might be called “acute” phases where mortality rates are higher, and periods of what might be called “remission” where the patient is leading more or less a normal healthy life. If you can survive a temporary acute phase, things are likely to get better.
? What is a “fuck you” suicide? Do you mean one where the person is deliberately trying to “make them sorry” or inconvenience and distress other people as much as possible via their suicide? Or just one where the person ended their own suffering without being very considerate of the feelings of others?
AFAICT most suicides don’t kill themselves out of spite or “adversarially”, so to speak. Even if they do it in a way that’s insensitive to the trauma and disruption caused in other people’s lives, they’re doing it to get away from their own pain, not to cause other people pain.
I would hesitate to call such an act a “fuck you” suicide unless it was clear that the suicide was deliberately and primarily trying to “punish” or hurt others by their act. I don’t think the survivors’ own (understandable) resentment should be automatically translated into an accusation that the person committing suicide was doing it out of spite against them.
Yes. At the time my sister killed herself she was experiencing a number of VERY stressful situations that anyone, no matter how resilient, would have found difficult. Four of the top ten stressful life changes to be specific, all at once. All of them, however, were temporary. They weren’t going to last forever. They weren’t going to cause her pain forever. She had successfully coped with those issues previously, the big difference being that in the past they had come at her one by one. I get that being hit with four simultaneously was overwhelming.
Given that she asphyxiated herself she sort of made her own “suicide pod”. Except for the bit about essentially stealing the neighbor’s car to do it. And she was considerate enough to hang a warning on the door of the neighbor’s garage to avoid potential harm to the first responders that would, inevitably, show up. Or the neighbor, if she got to the garage first.
Then she left a three-page screed where she very, very much intended to hurt certain people in her life. Even named names.
I get that her death was comparable to, say, death from complications of diabetes. That does not erase the pain she caused others, in some cases deliberately, with malice aforethought caused other people, nor does it change my opinion that she made a really bad mistake. My opinion being, of course, my opinion - I’m well aware that not everyone would agree with me.
Either one.
As I noted - my sister made it very clear, in writing, that she hoped her death would hurt certain individuals and named names. Apologizing in advance to everyone else (including me) doesn’t make that OK in my mind.
The kid on the train tracks chose a very certain method that nonetheless caused issues for a lot of other people. Of course, I know nothing about what was going on with him at the time. It’s possible his thinking was so disordered he was not capable of considering what his manner of death would do to others. Or maybe he simply didn’t care what came after.
As I said - my sister left a three page note, some of which named people she really did hope to hurt. So it does happen.
Which in my mind is very different that the young woman with the 100% fatal brain tumor killing herself.
How many times does someone have to cycle thru depression to satisfy you that suicide may be a viable option for them? How many years of trying different meds and doses should they try before they satisfy your opinion of when it’s okay to say they have had enough?
Take comfort wherever you can. If that’s what gets you thru the day, lean into it as much as you can. Whatever coping mechanism works for you is always the best option. I wish you continuing luck and a happy life. And, for what it’s worth, your participation here is one of the things that make this board a pleasant place to hang out.
I would, but I consider you a test case. What if it only throws you a few feet? That would be embarrassing. Or if you landed short and splatted into the side of the volcano? No satisfying hisss sound as the lava consumed you. No, I think it’s best for all concerned if you went alone.
Are you basing your opinion on just your sister’s suicide? Because my guess is that “fuck you” suicides are a small minority. Most suicide notes that I am familiar with, either real life or news stories, are long apologies to loved ones mixed in with an explanation why they chose suicide. You or I may not like the reason, but it’s not our call. Sometimes enough is enough, and you can’t expect other people to put your feelings above how awful life is for them day after day, year after year.
I’ve had one friend and two classmates commit suicide, and endured 3 serious attempts by my exceptionally gifted, though troubled bi-polar 21 yo daughter. Her last attempt was 3 months ago, and it was another close call. Luckily. Her mother and I recognized a warning sign. She was stealthily giving away things she cared about, including her beloved cat. The police successfully intervened and prevented the suicide. It took a while, but she’s once again back to her normal state.
None of these cases were “fuck you” suicides. I’ve no doubt they exist (though rare), but medically assisted suicides should reduce them significantly if processed properly and professionally. If someone in the throes of acute depression feels they have no options, except to live with their pain or take their life, with no assistance, they are likely to take their life and do so quickly before they lose their will.
If, on the other hand, they had a third option: medically assisted suicide, I believe many/most people with suicidal ideation would choose that option (why wouldn’t they?; no matter how brave you are, it can’t be easy to take your own life), and the waiting period and counseling may give the afflicted the time and caring to change their mind.
In my daughter’s case, she always said she doesn’t want to die, she just doesn’t want to be alive. She’s not vindictive and has never been one to hurt others. This is the mindset of someone in the thick of major depression. When she’s not depressed, which thankfully, is most of the time, she is happy and lives life much fuller than most people. I would sleep better at night if she had the option of medically assisted suicide. Ironically, I believe having that option would make her less likely to follow through. I’m confident the care and waiting would outlast the depressive state, leading her to back out.
In fact, I believe just having the option of medically assisted suicide would be enough to prevent many suicides. “If things get really bad, I have an easy way out” may be enough comfort for depressed individuals to keep as an option they never use.
As I pointed out, at the time of her death my sister’s mental state was complicated by four extremely stressful but transitory occurrences. Prior to that she had remained stable for many years. It strikes me more an an acute episode of something that had been under control rather than a constant condition. But we can argue about that all day. She wasn’t in a constant suicidal state for two decades, it was something she cycled in and out of, and part of it was avoiding stressors and triggers - which, the final months of her life, she was unable to do. But, I say again, ALL of them were temporary. Very much killing herself was a permanent solution to temporary problems.
Are you at least open to the possibility that my sister might have recovered to a more normal mental state and it wasn’t just a matter of death or endless agony?
Also, given when her death occurred there were many fewer options than today. Had she lived longer she might have found some of the new treatments to work even better than what she had been using. We’ll never know.
No. There is also that extremely gory train suicide I mentioned. The man who blew his head off in his bathroom in circumstances that pretty much guaranteed his six year old daughter would find his corpse. Now, I am not as familiar with the other two individuals but they sure were as inconsiderate as hell in how they went about killing themselves.
That may well be. If so, it might be slightly more positive than non-medically assisted suicides. I suppose we might find out if anyone studies the subject where that is available.
^ That could have described my sister who killed herself. Unlike what some people are suggesting here her life was not one uninterrupted slog of suffering. Not everyone’s depression is unrelenting or untreatable.
I still think there’s a pretty massive difference between “inconsiderate” (which is not an unusual or incomprehensible symptom in people overwhelmed by the effects of mental illness involving suicidal ideation) and “fuck you”. I don’t assume that anybody whose suicide inconveniences or traumatizes others, even to a large extent, was necessarily trying to cause that inconvenience or trauma as a “fuck you” gesture.
Mostly, people in that situation just want their own pain to stop. No, they’re not thinking about the pain they cause others, but then, they’re not thinking normally about pretty much anything. Suicide is like that.
Personally, I view it as a spectrum.
People also vary considerably in how well they’re functioning at the point of killing themselves, and how logically/emotionally they’re reacting to the situation.
My older brother was bipolar. In his bad times he got spiteful and vindictive, and he hated my parents and blamed them for everything wrong in his life. But you have to remember: his brain was malfunctioning.
His tirades against my parents were caused by his mental illness, not some character flaw. His death was caused by his mental illness, not some character flaw.
Yes, her brain was malfunctioning.
It led her to actions that caused severe pain to those around her.
The fact that it was illness that led her to perform those actions does not wipe out the pain they caused.
The dysfunction caused suicidal impulses does vary - some people are very impulsive. Others are very methodical and plan carefully. My sister was the latter. Her brain may have been malfunctioning, but she was not out of control or impulsive. Her actions were deliberate and careful. And they caused a lot of pain regardless of where the impulse came from. Saying “brain dysfunction” does not make the pain go away. It’s not about “character flaw”, it’s about damage done.