# Suicide - The morality thereof **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 9, 2003, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-the-morality-thereof/180582 "2003-06-09T03:36:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tekneek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Tekneek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tekneek)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-the-morality-thereof/180582/21 "2003-06-10T14:08:23Z")
It is not immoral to end your life when you no longer want to live it. It is immoral to force someone to stay alive that no longer wishes to be. It breaks down as simple as that, for me. ---
**Author:** ![Susma\_Rio\_Sep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/35a633/32.png) [@Susma\_Rio\_Sep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susma_Rio_Sep)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-the-morality-thereof/180582/22 "2003-06-10T14:35:42Z")
I started a thread once on how to effect self-departure, it was closed down by Gaudere; then I tried one on the merits of self-effected departure, that was also closed down by Gaudere. After that I started a thread on the Merits of Anal and Oral Sex, it was closed down by Gaudere. In recent days, I have seen threads on anal sex and homosexuality, and they have not been closed down by Gaudere. I guess Gaudere has broadened her mind about closing down such topics. I said elsewhere that learning is change; Gaudere has changed, she’s learned some new lessons. About suicide owing to terminal physical illness or extreme emotional depression, I think the first is all right, but not the second; because the first can’t be remedied, it is as good as death, while the second can be counteracted by drugs and human intervention. I suspect good sex with a very lusciously accommodating partner and winning millions of dollars in the lottery or a stroke of good luck in sudden big, very big, easy money can cure any depths of depression. Try me. Susma Rio Sep ---
**Author:** ![Susma\_Rio\_Sep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/35a633/32.png) [@Susma\_Rio\_Sep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susma_Rio_Sep)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-the-morality-thereof/180582/23 "2003-06-10T15:02:53Z")
If this thread is not soon closed down by Gaudere, then I think she’s really changed her attitude about discussing ways and means to effect self-departure and also the philosophy of self-departure. About the ways and means of self-departure: First, put your earthly affairs in order. If you owe money, settle it first; then ask forgiveness from all you have offended, and make up for your offenses with them; next, make very clear distributions of your material worth as to whom what will go; finally, pre-arrange the details of your funeral and burial. Wait, very important, prepare foolproof evidence of your self-chosen self-termination so that your family and friends will not be under suspicion of doing you in, like leaving messages about your freely chosen self-departure, and no one is to blame. If you are a member of some bulletin boards, send them messages of your self-effected demise. Second, the method you choose must be certain, quick, painless, and clean; so that no one will be inconvenienced whether you fail or succeed, meaning keeping you alive should you fail or sweeping up and washing up the mess you make in terminating yourself. Third, if there is life after death, please contact me, Susma Ri Sep, if you can still communicate notwithstanding your post death status. About the philosophy of self-departure, for me it’s an exercise of self-determination and self-disposition. You see, we didn’t have any say in coming to this world, and all the details and incidentals thereof; so at least in its exit, we should deserve that every last act of free will and free determination and free disposition. That is the ultimate worth of human freedom; otherwise, even in death we are not free, but a toy of circumstances or the forces of nature. By the way self-departure for people with terminal illness is an act of altruism in favor of others who are healthy and want to look forward to years of happy life – it makes the competition for survival less of an ordeal, since the number of rivals for scarce resources would be lesser. Self-departure for people terminally ill saves money and trouble and time for family and friends. And remember to donate your useful organs or body parts to whomever in need and can profit therefrom. Susma Rio Sep ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-the-morality-thereof/180582/24 "2003-06-10T16:23:27Z")
> [@](#): > > I feel that anything I have borrowed, I may return at an earlier date should I choose. Ah, but from view, that isn’t what you are doing. Rather, you are borrowing something on credit and then purposefully wasting it. Not returning it. > [@](#): > > The converse is also true. Five minutes from now you may do something which causes pain and suffering to a great many people. Mayhap. The point is that you get to choose to do something five minutes from now to do some good for someone else. > [@](#): > > They’re not going to stumble onto the cure for cancer or the meaning of life, so why should they continue to suffer? No one contributes some world-altering thing on their own. Its built on many people choosing to do good. > [@](#): > > People who commit suicide don’t want to win the race. They would prefer to drop out of the race altogether. Thats the problem - there is no first or second or thrid in the race, only those who left the field and those who went the mile. > [@](#): > > If we extend the metaphor, I would never deign to force people to finish a race. If they get a really bad cramp, twist their ankle, or otherwise injure themselves, they can choose to stop running. It’s up to them. Yes, they can. But no one ever promised the race was going to be fun. They just said there’d be ice cream at the finish line. I can’t order you to finish. I’m just saying dropping out is the path of the coward, of the weak. > [@](#): > > With the risk of getting into a religious debate, why is murder never “OK”? I consider murder to be wrong only because the person being murdered doesn’t want to be killed. If the person being murdered wants to die, then I don’t see the problem. I guess that’s why I think assisted suicide is okay. I believe the deliberate destruction of a human being to be axiomatically wrong. I know not everyone agrees with me. That doesn’t mean I am wrong. Diogenes, at the risk of sounding like a Pit thread, your request for a cite in what was obviously a personal opinion and a sastment of my beliefs is rather… odd. > [@](#): > > Well…but that would assume you’re even interested in winning the race at the first place…If you think running is uninteresting and pointless, and that you’re not interested in whatever prize the winner will get, while would you try to reach the finish line, especially if it’s painful? Its when things are down that seperates the strong and the weak. If your not interested in the prize, or even think its a lie, then I think you’re mentally ill and need help. Not that anyone ever listens to me. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-the-morality-thereof/180582/25 "2003-06-10T16:51:34Z")
" . . . very important, prepare foolproof evidence of your self-chosen self-termination so that your family and friends will not be under suspicion of doing you in, like leaving messages about your freely chosen self-departure, and no one is to blame." —Or . . . Alternately . . . Pick someone you really hate, and leave a message that they just called, threatening your life . . . ---
**Author:** ![Phnord\_Prephect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/df705f/32.png) [@Phnord\_Prephect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phnord_Prephect)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2003, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-the-morality-thereof/180582/26 "2003-06-10T17:27:47Z")
In Amerika at least, we are told in school at least, that the creators of our country at least wrote on paper that they thought citizens of this country should have the RIGHT TO LIFE. A right is NOT an obligation. If you have the right to live, you have the right to die. Period. If you have no right to die, you have no right to life. You have an OBLIGATION to life. Earlier in this thread is the statement “You do not own your own life.” Uh… ok, then. Whose slave am I? Isn’t slavery illegal in this country? Not to threadjack, but let’s look at this rationally please. Consider the right to vote. Many people exercise that right by NOT voting. They decide there is no difference between the candidates, and choose NOT to give either one their support. This is the RIGHT to vote. If you were legally obligated to vote… if soldiers came to your house, put a gun to your head, and say “Support one of our two candidates who are identical”… is this your RIGHT to vote? No, you are being FORCED to. Similarly, if you cannot end your own life, you do not have a RIGHT to that life. It belongs to someone else… the person keeping it from ending. The right to something includes the right not to use it. The right to life includes the right to suicide. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-the-morality-thereof/180582/27 "2003-06-11T03:15:55Z")
Hey, it’s legal over where I am… if you have six months or less left to live. ---
**Author:** ![Wake\_up\_call](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/dec6dc/32.png) [@Wake\_up\_call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wake_up_call)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-the-morality-thereof/180582/28 "2003-06-11T04:36:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blalron \* > \*\*Hey, it’s legal over where I am… if you have six months or less left to live. \*\* Ah, but even that right was almost taken away by Asscraft. We all know what is his take take on spiritual implications of the issue. The newly acted Assisted suicide Law in Oregon was the first thing he went after, as soon as he was sworn in as the Attorney General – As if there was nothing more important to do in the country. Then 9/11 came about, and he finally diverted his attention to creating the Patriot Act. I wouldn’t brag about the survival of the law in Oregon yet. If you think Asscraft has a problem with assisted suicide, you ain’t seen nothing yet. Wait until Dubya plants another one of his reborn buddies in the Supreme Court later this year, or appoints an AG even more religiously zealot than Asscroch. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-the-morality-thereof/180582/29 "2003-06-11T04:59:05Z")
My life is not some sort of “debt” that I owe to anybody-I don’t remember signing or agreeing to any contract. My life, such as it is, was given to me by the fates(or chance, or goddess or god) to do with what I will, and no outside force holds the deed to it. I may waste it. I may spend it wisely. I may even throw it away. If there are any obligations I owe, I put them on myself, and _only_ I get to determine what they are and when they are paid off. My duty is to myself, my life is my own, and if I want to end it _for any reason or no reason at all_, no other person on Earth has the right to say nay. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-the-morality-thereof/180582/30 "2003-06-11T07:53:32Z")
I agree with **Diogenes** , **Kalt** , and **Tekneek**. The truly “selfish” act is asking another person to endure a painful existence so that you don’t have to deal with losing him. The argument that you don’t own your own life makes no sense to me. I can see how a Christian might come to that conclusion, but as a non-Christian, it seems to me that even supposing life is granted by a supreme being, it’s a _gift_, not a loan. Throwing away a life you don’t want is no more immoral than throwing away an ugly sweater you got for Christmas, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![sghoul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@sghoul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sghoul)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-the-morality-thereof/180582/31 "2003-06-11T12:39:04Z")
> [@](#): > > Ah, but from view, that isn’t what you are doing. Rather, you are borrowing something on credit and then purposefully wasting it. Not returning it. The problem with this is that normally when you get something on credit you CHOOSE to do so. Life is forced upon us. If some guy showed up at my house and forced me to take a car on credit, I might crash it just despite him for forcing it on me. > [@](#): > > Mayhap. The point is that you get to choose to do something five minutes from now to do some good for someone else. I can choose all I want, but life isn’t just about your choices. life is full of everone’s choices. So, a person can choose to be good, and do good things, and those around them can choose to beat them with sticks. > [@](#): > > No one contributes some world-altering thing on their own. Its built on many people choosing to do good. The world is also full of people NOT doing good. It’s easier, and has greater short term rewards. > [@](#): > > Thats the problem - there is no first or second or thrid in the race, only those who left the field and those who went the mile. So what? You’ll have to give some compelling proof that quitting the race has some kind of negative ramifications for the person who quits. And what about those who didn’t want to be in the race in the first place? > [@](#): > > Yes, they can. But no one ever promised the race was going to be fun. They just said there’d be ice cream at the finish line. I can’t order you to finish. I’m just saying dropping out is the path of the coward, of the weak. Not everyone who runs the race nessessarily get’s ice cream. We have no way of know exactly how many people actually get the prize. If you can show me some stats, that would be great. But if we find out that only 20% of runners get any prize, the incentive to run the race is greatly decreased. > [@](#): > > Its when things are down that seperates the strong and the weak. If your not interested in the prize, or even think its a lie, then I think you’re mentally ill and need help. Not that anyone ever listens to me. Therein lies the problem. The “prize” is pretty nebulous, to the average Joe. You can’t see it. There aren’t any testimonials from past runners who won the prize. If some guy told me to run around this track will he said to stop, and there was a pretty good chance of all kinds of bad things happening during the run, and that at the end he would give me ice cream (yet there is no ice cream in sight) I am not so sure I would take him up on the offer. Worse yet, if he forced me to run, I would pretty much hate the race. Mind you, I am somewhat playing devil’s advocet. I think of myself as a Christian, but this issue has always been one that bothered me. God is supposedly meciful, yet forces people to stay in a life they may not be happy with. Sounds like a pretty crappy race, if these are hard and fast rules. Lukily for me, I see God as a bit more forgiving. ---
**Author:** ![MSU\_1978](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac8455/32.png) [@MSU\_1978](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MSU_1978)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-the-morality-thereof/180582/32 "2003-06-11T12:58:31Z")
My opinion from a Catholic morality viewpoint is that suicide is a special case of homicide. A fully rational person would not do such a thing, but if he did it would be a mortal sin because it would be the taking of a life without remorse or the possibility of reconciliation. Since it is generally done by someone not of sound mind and/or body, the same capacity for sin is not there and a merciful God will take this into account. ---
**Author:** ![Wake\_up\_call](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/dec6dc/32.png) [@Wake\_up\_call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wake_up_call)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-the-morality-thereof/180582/33 "2003-06-11T13:55:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MSU 1978 \* > \*\*My opinion from a Catholic morality viewpoint is that suicide is a special case of homicide. \*\* [hijack]Which also explains why the Catholics are generally against abortion. But what about capital punishment/death penalty, or pre-emptive strkes, bombing innocent people merely to liberate them or to find some illusive WMDs? I take it those are not special cases of homicide. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![MSU\_1978](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac8455/32.png) [@MSU\_1978](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MSU_1978)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-the-morality-thereof/180582/34 "2003-06-11T14:48:18Z")
Capital punishment is state-sponsred homicide, as is the bombing of the innocents. There is such a thing as a just war, but Bush’s Iraq debacle was not an example. Abortion is more than a small hijack and needs threads of its own. ---
**Author:** ![MmmDonut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@MmmDonut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MmmDonut)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-the-morality-thereof/180582/35 "2003-06-11T15:37:54Z")
I can’t even think of a more fundamental right than the right to take your own life. If there is anything I truly own, it is my body. If I choose to destroy it now, that is my business. I don’t think anyone can say “freedom” exists, if we are trapped in this life. I believe that being unaccepting of the fact that some people do not value life to the extent that society demands is ultimately an unhealthy attitude. No one should be ashamed of the desire to commit suicide. If it can’t be discussed rationally, it will only contribute to the alienation most suicidal undoubtedly experience. In my opinion, forcing life upon those that do not want it will only bring them closer to death. If someone does “catch the bus”, I think we should respect their decision, and be as happy as possible that they have found peace. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-the-morality-thereof/180582/36 "2003-06-11T16:07:59Z")
by sghoul > [@](#): > > The problem with this is that normally when you get something on credit you CHOOSE to do so. Life is forced upon us. If some guy showed up at my house and forced me to take a car on credit, I might crash it just despite him for forcing it on me. From my point of view, you did ask for it. Since from my POV you would not have been able to make a choice if you did not ask for it. > [@](#): > > So what? You’ll have to give some compelling proof that quitting the race has some kind of negative ramifications for the person who quits. And what about those who didn’t want to be in the race in the first place? Am Catholic. Suicide is a special case of homicide, as Wake up indicated. regardless, I don’t understand why _I_ have to present proof my axioms are valid, when you do not. How anbout showing us some of your own absolute validation before you demand mine? by Wake Up Call > [@](#): > > Which also explains why the Catholics are generally against abortion. But what about capital punishment/death penalty, or pre-emptive strkes, bombing innocent people merely to liberate them or to find some illusive WMDs? I take it those are not special cases of homicide. All war is bad. Of course, one may not have a real choice in the matter. It sometimes comes down to having to choose between evils of inaction and evils of action. There is the “Just War Doctrine”, but I think that is way outdated, relied too much on a yet-incomplete understanding of nations and states and war, and needs serious revision. In any event, you’ll find the Holy father was rather aginst the Iraq war, although I disagreed with him on that issue. by MmmDonut > [@](#): > > I think we should respect their decision, and be as happy as possible that they have found peace. Why should I be happy when I don’t think they’ve found any peace. To misquote Yoda, all you will find is what you take with you. ---
**Author:** ![MmmDonut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@MmmDonut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MmmDonut)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2003, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-the-morality-thereof/180582/37 "2003-06-11T16:52:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by smiling bandit \* > Why should I be happy when I don’t think they’ve found any peace. To misquote Yoda, all you will find is what you take with you. \*\* That’s your moral prerogative. However, just like all moral beliefs, it is not one you can force upon people. No rational argument can be made, to outlaw suicide. Such a prohibition is absurd. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2003, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-the-morality-thereof/180582/38 "2003-06-12T00:55:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by smiling bandit \* > **From my point of view, you did ask for it. Since from my POV you would not have been able to make a choice if you did not ask for it.** Could you clarify this? It seems like you’re saying people are born because they choose to be. ---
**Author:** ![muddymom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@muddymom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muddymom)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2003, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-the-morality-thereof/180582/39 "2003-06-12T02:44:22Z")
I am much obliged by the responses to this thread, most notably MSU…food for thought…Mmmmdonut…very interesting…Susma Rio Sep…hmmmm…interesting, yet twisted…need more thoughts on this…Cowgirl, I have given most of my thoughts to you and your friend…I can’t imagine what your buddy must feel… my thoughts and prayers are with your buddy…that is all ---
**Author:** ![Phoenix\_Dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Phoenix\_Dragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phoenix_Dragon)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2003, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-the-morality-thereof/180582/40 "2003-06-12T12:10:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by smiling bandit \* > **Thats the problem - there is no first or second or thrid in the race, only those who left the field and those who went the mile.** One should probably note that the race of life doesn’t have a “finish” line. You don’t go until you finish, you go until you _are_ finished. There is no victory line. No winner’s circle. No final goal to work towards. You just keep going until you stop. It’s pointless to chastise someone for not reaching the finish line when there is none. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-the-morality-thereof/180582.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suicide-the-morality-thereof/180582.md?page=3)