# sum edumacation pleez **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 13, 2003, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sum-edumacation-pleez/194864 "2003-08-13T07:59:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![parlo\_americano](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b19c9b/32.png) [@parlo\_americano](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/parlo_americano)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sum-edumacation-pleez/194864/1 "2003-08-13T07:59:05Z")
Is it learned or learnt? 1. Yesterday, I \_\_\_\_\_\_\_ to how to make cheese. 2. In the past few years, I have \_\_\_\_\_\_\_ so much about people from my many secret experiements. ---
**Author:** ![soulmurk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@soulmurk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/soulmurk)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sum-edumacation-pleez/194864/2 "2003-08-13T08:09:12Z")
I didn’t believe learnt was even a word until I just looked it up, but it’s listed as a “chiefly British past and past participle of learn.” I would say the examples you proved are answered by learned, as learnt seems archaic and informal. If you say either fast enough though, no one will know which you’re using. ---
**Author:** ![parlo\_americano](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b19c9b/32.png) [@parlo\_americano](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/parlo_americano)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sum-edumacation-pleez/194864/3 "2003-08-13T08:27:49Z")
I like that - being given permission to speak faster and mumble. yeah! Is learnt archaic? Does anyone use it? I thought that about the 3 forms of thrive, but I’ve heard them being used. thrive throve and thriven. :my aunt: Wow these strawberries have really thriven since you moved them last spring. :me running for the dictionary: ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sum-edumacation-pleez/194864/4 "2003-08-13T16:51:23Z")
According to Garner’s _Dictionary of Modern American Usage_: > [@](#): > > In AmE, the past tense is _learned_; in BrE it’s often _learnt_. To use _learnt_ in AmE is an affectation ---
**Author:** ![emmaliminal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@emmaliminal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emmaliminal)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sum-edumacation-pleez/194864/5 "2003-08-13T16:59:45Z")
As a professional copyeditor of grammar textbooks, I can tell you that all the forms like _learnt_ are disappearing from American English, even the more common ones like _burnt_. Some people still use them, though. You’ll rarely be actually incorrect by avoiding them. I miss 'em. ---
**Author:** ![skeptic\_ev](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@skeptic\_ev](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skeptic_ev)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sum-edumacation-pleez/194864/6 "2003-08-13T17:41:06Z")
[hijack] > [@](#): > > professional copyeditor of grammar textbooks Cool job, **emilyforce**. [/hijack] _Throve_, though perhaps not actually archaic, is probably not as widely used as _thrived_. I suspect that the trend **emilyforce** mentioned will continue until we lose most of our irregular verbs. Thus, what was once _thrive/throve/thriven_ will become _thrive/thrived/thrived_. It’s a little sad, actually. I won’t argue for _learnt_ over _learned_, but _burnt_ communicates a lively shade of meaning that _burned_ somehow does not, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![parlo\_americano](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b19c9b/32.png) [@parlo\_americano](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/parlo_americano)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sum-edumacation-pleez/194864/7 "2003-08-13T17:55:03Z")
I think since English is so widely spoken as a second language it makes sense to make it as un-irregular as possible by just adding ed for the past form and past participle. Do you think Will we still keep those irregular forms as adjectives? e.g., burned toast instead of burnt toast When writing to an international audience which is better to use in terms of spelling and in this case word choice? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sum-edumacation-pleez/194864/8 "2003-08-13T18:06:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by emilyforce \* > \*\*As a professional copyeditor of grammar textbooks, I can tell you that all the forms like _learnt_ are disappearing from American English, even the more common ones like _burnt_. Some people still use them, though. You’ll rarely be actually incorrect by avoiding them. > > I miss 'em. \*\* I do too. Just after i arrived in America three years ago to attend grad school, i handed in a paper to my professor, and she crossed out the two or three instances of “whilst” in my writing, saying that it was archaic. I liked the word, and still like it, even though Bryan Garner says that it “is virtually obsolete in AmE and reeks of pretension in the work of a modern American writer.” ---
**Author:** ![Krisfer\_the\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Krisfer\_the\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krisfer_the_Cat)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sum-edumacation-pleez/194864/9 "2003-08-13T19:59:02Z")
I am probably the only Westerner or at least Utahn to use the word “shan’t”. I like the sound of it… and the look on peoples faces when I do use it. “Whilst” is such a wonderful word. HOW DARE SHE CROSS IT OUT!😃 Same for “lest”. There is too much bland Walmartization in the world I plan to keep my vocabulary somewhat creative and eclectic. ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2003, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sum-edumacation-pleez/194864/10 "2003-08-13T20:49:51Z")
Wow! I learnt something new! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![parlo\_americano](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b19c9b/32.png) [@parlo\_americano](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/parlo_americano)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sum-edumacation-pleez/194864/11 "2003-08-14T11:29:34Z")
I don’t care if it sounds archaic, whilst and shan’t are good words. But then again so are while and shouldn’t. I guess I’ll use every expression when it suits me. I’m just a little word whore. Does anyone else make “shit” into an irregular verb? shit shat shat ---
**Author:** ![Aro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b3f665/32.png) [@Aro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aro)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sum-edumacation-pleez/194864/12 "2003-08-14T13:07:53Z")
_learnt_ is still the most common usage of the word (past participle of ‘learn’) in British English. _learned_, pronounced ‘learn-ED’, is most commonly used for when someone is particularly knowledgable about a subject. i.e. _The minister is very learned in medieval history._ _shat_ is also in common usage here (over the pond) too. i.e. _The cat shat on the mat._ I _burned_ my toast doesn’t sound at all right to me at all. Is that standard usage in the US? ---
**Author:** ![parlo\_americano](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b19c9b/32.png) [@parlo\_americano](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/parlo_americano)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sum-edumacation-pleez/194864/13 "2003-08-14T15:21:05Z")
Ha I knew shat was a word. Since it’s never in any of the grammar books. ---
**Author:** ![emmaliminal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@emmaliminal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emmaliminal)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sum-edumacation-pleez/194864/14 "2003-08-14T15:27:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aro \* > \*\*I _burned_ my toast doesn’t sound at all right to me at all. Is that standard usage in the US? \*\* Yep. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by skeptic\_ev \* > \*\*[hijack] > Cool job, **emilyforce**. > [/hijack] > \*\* [blush]Aw shucks, really, it’s not as glamorous as you’d imagine. [/blush] Wow! Someone thinks my job is cool! Wanna do some proofreading for me? Today I’m checking to make sure that any and all mistakes or infelicities contained in the text of the NY State “Learning Standards for English Language Arts” have been reproduced precisely in the state-specific front-matter section of the update of our 10th grade lit textbook. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sum-edumacation-pleez/194864/15 "2003-08-14T16:38:20Z")
My mother was English, and I had a lot of English children’s books growing up. So I was always getting marked wrong on spelling tests in school for putting _burnt, spoilt, colour,_ etc. ---
**Author:** ![kookiecanuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e495f1/32.png) [@kookiecanuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kookiecanuck)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sum-edumacation-pleez/194864/16 "2003-08-14T16:46:01Z")
My favorite is hanged and hung…hanged just doesnt sound right…but hey that’s just me ---
**Author:** ![kookiecanuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e495f1/32.png) [@kookiecanuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kookiecanuck)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sum-edumacation-pleez/194864/17 "2003-08-14T16:47:27Z")
oh yeah and dived and dove. ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sum-edumacation-pleez/194864/18 "2003-08-14T17:39:16Z")
Aren’t burnt toast and burned toast also two different things? Burnt toast: toasted too long. Burned toast: incinerated. ---
**Author:** ![skeptic\_ev](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@skeptic\_ev](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skeptic_ev)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sum-edumacation-pleez/194864/19 "2003-08-14T20:57:07Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by emilyforce_ > Today I’m checking to make sure that any and all mistakes or infelicities contained in the text of the NY State “Learning Standards for English Language Arts” have been reproduced precisely in … our 10th grade lit textbook. Are you serious, **emilyforce**? You’re checking to make sure that mistakes are reproduced? If so, that’s bureaucracy for ya. Sure, I’ll proofread. I’m about written out today–I’m a tech writer–but I can manage a bit more reading. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![emmaliminal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@emmaliminal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emmaliminal)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2003, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sum-edumacation-pleez/194864/20 "2003-08-14T21:28:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tschild \* > \*\*Aren’t burnt toast and burned toast also two different things? > > Burnt toast: toasted too long. > Burned toast: incinerated. \*\* Not from a prescriptivist (that is, cares about what’s _correct_) point of view, like my professional one is supposed to be; the two words have identical meanings. But my linguist husband, who is a descriptivist (that is, cares about what people _actually say and understand_) would be interested in the distinction. Yep, **skeptic\_ev** , I’m serious. Of course most of what I have to check for is that our editors haven’t edited this stuff according to our house style – we use the series comma, for instance, and follow Webster’s New World College Dictionary, 4th ed., for compound words, blah blah blah, and they don’t. It’s not bureaucracy, though – it’s marketing! We can’t sell books to school districts who THINK we’ve made errors, even if we really only just fixed theirs. For the same reason, we never end sentences with prepositions in our books, even though all the grammar experts we hold dear agree that prepositions are just fine there. There are too many English teachers out there who believe otherwise that we avoid it rather than piss them off. The New York standards are actually pretty clean. God help the Floridians, though, OMG. They actually made a parallelism error in the sentence about the importance of correct parallelism. And included things in the lit appreciation section like “Students must understand Chinese poetry.” The Californian ones aren’t much better. Sadly, I can’t actually recruit you to proofread for me. It involves comparing one page to another… and the pages are ACTUALLY ON PAPER :eek: and due today. We mark on them with colored pencils and mail them to each other. We’re not exactly a tech-savvy crew around here. I’m in co-charge of teaching our folks how to use Adobe Acrobat to mark up proofs, and you’d think we were asking them to learn C++ programming or something. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sum-edumacation-pleez/194864.md?page=2)