# Sun Tzu - The Art of War
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sun-tzu-the-art-of-war/816817
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [June 27, 2018, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sun-tzu-the-art-of-war/816817 "2018-06-27T05:07:52Z")
**Posts on this page:** 14
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@molten](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/molten)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2018, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sun-tzu-the-art-of-war/816817/1 "2018-06-27T05:07:52Z")
I would like to understand the concepts in the book and apply them to life (not actual war). I am not interested in it for parroting a theory. Thus the books on the subject are pretty much useless to me.
Is there a practical resource where one can do exercises on applying these concepts?
An anime or manga on the topic?
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### Author:  [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2018, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sun-tzu-the-art-of-war/816817/2 "2018-06-27T11:16:47Z")
What makes you so sure that it does apply to life and not actual war? The whole thing is like 5 pages long, [just read it](http://classics.mit.edu/Tzu/artwar.html).
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### Author:  [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2018, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sun-tzu-the-art-of-war/816817/3 "2018-06-28T04:46:02Z")
As I remember it, The Art of War is basically an argument for _tactical_ pragmatism on the battlefield. Attempting to draw some general principle for life from it would be wildly counterproductive. What’s justifiable when your troops’ lives and indeed your lands are on the line may be a quick way to the enmity of society anytime else.
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### Author:  [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2018, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sun-tzu-the-art-of-war/816817/4 "2018-06-28T06:57:04Z")
It’s very simplified, but this [YouTube video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOLXv3nqDkI) by Fight Mediocrity can be a start.
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### Author:  [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2018, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sun-tzu-the-art-of-war/816817/5 "2018-06-28T12:17:03Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#):
>
> As I remember it, The Art of War is basically an argument for _tactical_ pragmatism on the battlefield. Attempting to draw some general principle for life from it would be wildly counterproductive.
Yes, I’d like to see the life lessons drawn from principles such as this:
> [@](#):
>
> In the operations of war, where there are in the field a thousand swift chariots, as many heavy chariots, and a hundred thousand mail-clad soldiers, with provisions enough to carry them a thousand li, the expenditure at home and at the front, including entertainment of guests, small items such as glue and paint, and sums spent on chariots and armor, will reach the total of a thousand ounces of silver per day. Such is the cost of raising an army of 100,000 men.
and this:
> [@](#):
>
> With this loss of substance and exhaustion of strength, the homes of the people will be stripped bare, and three-tenths of their income will be dissipated; while government expenses for broken chariots, worn-out horses, breast-plates and helmets, bows and arrows, spears and shields, protective mantles, draught-oxen and heavy wagons, will amount to four-tenths of its total revenue.
and this:
> [@](#):
>
> When there is dust rising in a high column, it is the sign of chariots advancing; when the dust is low, but spread over a wide area, it betokens the approach of infantry. When it branches out in different directions, it shows that parties have been sent to collect firewood. A few clouds of dust moving to and fro signify that the army is encamping.
and this:
> [@](#):
>
> There are five ways of attacking with fire. The first is to burn soldiers in their camp; the second is to burn stores; the third is to burn baggage trains; the fourth is to burn arsenals and magazines; the fifth is to hurl dropping fire amongst the enemy.
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### Author:  [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2018, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sun-tzu-the-art-of-war/816817/6 "2018-06-28T13:50:46Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#):
>
> As I remember it, The Art of War is basically an argument for _tactical_ pragmatism on the battlefield. Attempting to draw some general principle for life from it would be wildly counterproductive. What’s justifiable when your troops’ lives and indeed your lands are on the line may be a quick way to the enmity of society anytime else.
If you’re creative, there could be some crossover.
I know that I, personally, try to use the modern OODA Loop convention, from the military, for general life. Basically, step back every once in a while, do a review cycle, reorient, and then continue on again.
It’s been a while since I read the Art of War. I think it had some basic tactical advice like finding the weak point of the line and going for that. One problem that I’ve seen over my working career with startups is that people will hear about a growth industry, decide to start a business, and end up being the 200th competitor who also just jumped on the bandwagon trying to win market share from the company that started 3 years earlier, already owns 90% of the market, and you ain’t gonna displace them from the top spot minus an act of God. If you want to create a startup, basing it around an original product that serves a real, unanswered need allows you to succeed without having to steal market share from anyone. It’s one of the weak points of the marketplace. You might still fail, but at least you’re on a better tactical footing.
But, I would say that really just about anything can and will be an inspiration for how to live, how to do business, how to manage your affairs, etc. Some throwaway line in a trashy romance novel could be the key to you finding complete success and satisfaction in life.
The Art of War has the advantage, though, of being a work that prompted more people to think more diverse thoughts than most other works, like any classic that has lasted through the ages. On the other hand, that’s also true of Alice in Wonderland or Pride and Prejudice. Whether the writer was much of a thinker and also good at getting their thoughts down in a way that others could reasonably follow is, really, the key to it, I think.
Personally, I’d suggest trying to get a wide appreciation of ways of thought. I’m sure I could pull some good military strategy out of Pride and Prejudice, so it’s not like you’re wasting time reading it, even if your sole purpose in life is to be a soldier and commander. And everyone who is hoping to be a scholar soldier will have read Sun Tzu so you’re going to have to swim into the wider pool if you want to have some thoughts that everyone else is unlikely to have.
But all random knowledge is also sort of useless without experience. Minus anything concrete to apply it to, comparing market strategies to lines of soldiers with spears is not going to be a thought that would come to mind. Minus some experience in the business world, knowing how to translate A into B in a way that is useful will be impossible. Minus a decent imagination, understanding the scenarios that Sun Tzu described in a way that is useful for translation is going to be impossible - unless you have the experience of a soldier in a war.
The problem that computers have with language translation is that they lack any context of the real world and so what things make sense and what things do not. Fundamentally, when using AI techniques, they’re doing the same processing as us when it comes to translating one language into another. And so their failure to do so minus real life experience is a pretty good indication of where you’ll fall given the same constraints.
Dumping the classics into your head is good, but also insufficient.
ETA: [Pride, prejudice and strategic thinking: Jane Austen wrote the book on game theory | UCLA](http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/when-strategic-decision-making-244370)
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### Author:  [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2018, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sun-tzu-the-art-of-war/816817/7 "2018-06-28T14:12:57Z")
> [@molten](#):
>
> I would like to understand the concepts in the book and apply them to life (not actual war). I am not interested in it for parroting a theory. Thus the books on the subject are pretty much useless to me.
>
> Is there a practical resource where one can do exercises on applying these concepts?
>
> An anime or manga on the topic?
You have decided to apply a collection of concepts you don’t understand to your life?
Well, I guess it takes all sorts.
Here are a couple of passages and how they apply to grocery shopping:
> [@](#):
>
> When you engage in actual fighting, if victory is long in coming, then men’s weapons will grow dull and their ardor will be damped.
Pick a grocery store close to you. If the travel time is too long your shopping expedition will not be successful.
Also, be decisive and quick, if you dither over every decision you will lose.
> [@](#):
>
> Sun Tzu said: In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy’s country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is better to recapture an army entire than to destroy it, to capture a regiment, a detachment or a company entire than to destroy them.
Put the groceries in the trolley carefully. That is better than destroying them.
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### Author:  [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2018, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sun-tzu-the-art-of-war/816817/8 "2018-06-28T16:27:44Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#):
>
> It’s been a while since I read the Art of War. I think it had some basic tactical advice like finding the weak point of the line and going for that. One problem that I’ve seen over my working career with startups is that people will hear about a growth industry, decide to start a business, and end up being the 200th competitor who also just jumped on the bandwagon trying to win market share from the company that started 3 years earlier, already owns 90% of the market, and you ain’t gonna displace them from the top spot minus an act of God. If you want to create a startup, basing it around an original product that serves a real, unanswered need allows you to succeed without having to steal market share from anyone. It’s one of the weak points of the marketplace. You might still fail, but at least you’re on a better tactical footing.
Sun Tzu said: Whoever is first in the field and awaits the coming of the enemy, will be fresh for the fight; whoever is second in the field and has to hasten to battle will arrive exhausted.
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### Author:  [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2018, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sun-tzu-the-art-of-war/816817/9 "2018-06-28T16:30:22Z")
The main point of Sun Tzu is: Dude, maybe don’t go for the frontal assault, scream and leap every time? Like, maybe try some trickery? Don’t always do what your opponent expects?
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2018, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sun-tzu-the-art-of-war/816817/10 "2018-06-28T18:17:53Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#):
>
> If you’re creative, there could be some crossover.
>
> I know that I, personally, try to use the modern OODA Loop convention, from the military, for general life. Basically, step back every once in a while, do a review cycle, reorient, and then continue on again.
But it’s kind of the tail wagging the dog. It’s not that you’re taking sound military principles and applying them to non-military situations. It’s that you’re taking generally sound principles and applying them to all kinds of situations.
Things like “plan out what you’re going to do before you start doing it” is a good idea in a military situation. But that’s because it’s a good idea in most situations.
As Darren Garrison pointed out the specifically military principles of _The Art of War_ don’t have general applications. They’re only relevant to a general leading troops in ancient China.
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2018, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sun-tzu-the-art-of-war/816817/11 "2018-06-28T18:23:13Z")
> [@Lemur866](#):
>
> Sun Tzu said: Whoever is first in the field and awaits the coming of the enemy, will be fresh for the fight; whoever is second in the field and has to hasten to battle will arrive exhausted.
Which is not always true. Sometimes, the first company in a new field wastes a lot of resources trying out new ideas that don’t work. The second company that comes in after them learns from their mistakes and devotes all their resources to just the good ideas the first company discovered at high cost. By not having had to waste its resources, the second company ends up putting the first company out of business.
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### Author:  [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2018, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sun-tzu-the-art-of-war/816817/12 "2018-06-28T18:50:40Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#):
>
> Which is not always true. Sometimes, the first company in a new field wastes a lot of resources trying out new ideas that don’t work. The second company that comes in after them learns from their mistakes and devotes all their resources to just the good ideas the first company discovered at high cost. By not having had to waste its resources, the second company ends up putting the first company out of business.
Possibly true, but usually the media is slow to notice the new market. By the time they’re talking about how big Foo Corp is and how it has grown 1000X in just 3 years, whatever company Foo might have followed by 6 months and then eclipsed is long dead.
There’s probably some way to say that in Art of War speak.
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### Author:  [@BobBitchin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobBitchin)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2018, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sun-tzu-the-art-of-war/816817/13 "2018-06-28T19:13:48Z")
I don’t want to be a major stick in the mud, but are we getting wooshed here?
Firstly:
The OP states he wants to use “The Art of War” in everyday life.
Isn’t that kind of a teenage/bro cliche’, like “I gotta sit with my back to the wall”:smack:
Secondly:
He wants a study guide for an ancient text, and he wants it in some kind of Japanese cartoon genre?:dubious:
I think the OP is either very young or just foolin with us.
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### Author:  [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2018, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sun-tzu-the-art-of-war/816817/14 "2018-06-28T19:39:27Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#):
>
> What makes you so sure that it does apply to life and not actual war? The whole thing is like 5 pages long, [just read it](http://classics.mit.edu/Tzu/artwar.html).
Yeah, classical/literary Chinese is _really_ succinct. Even that bare bones translation is longer than the original, which you can see here with character by character translation and annotation.
> **[Sun Tzu: The Art of War](https://learn.bowdoin.edu/suntzu/index.html)**
>
> Sun Tzu's The Art of War is a new translation by the Denma Translation Group. It shows how one might attain victory without going to battle, and how this ancient classic applies to our lives today.