# "Sunlight Before Signing" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 28, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662 "2009-04-28T19:56:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662/1 "2009-04-28T19:56:30Z")
As a candidate, Senator Obama promised that he as president would not sign any non-emergency bill without giving the American public an opportunity to review and comment on the White House website for five days. So far as I can see, this promise has not been kept. Unless things like “The Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act of 2009” are “emergency legislation,” that is. It looks to me like only one bill, the DTV extension, was actually posted for review for the five days. So far, I’d say President Obama has failed to keep this promise. Or am I being too critical in this conclusion? ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662/2 "2009-04-28T20:00:48Z")
I completely agree. I would definitely like to see him do more to keep this promise. Like the [publication of his Executive Orders](http://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing_room/executive_orders/), it seems like it started out alright, but then quickly fell to the wayside. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662/3 "2009-04-28T20:01:25Z")
The Ledbetter bill was part of his frickin’ campaign platform. There were far many more than five days available for the public to comment upon it and even have it influence their votes. Do you, in fact, have \*any \*valid examples _at all_ to offer of this nefariousness you allege? This is beneath your usual standards (and, coming from me, you know what that means). ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662/4 "2009-04-28T20:07:16Z")
According to [wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilly_Ledbetter_Fair_Pay_Act), it was introduced in the Senate on January 8 and signed into law on the 29th. So three weeks. True, who knows if it was mentioned on the White House website, but surely it would have been on [THOMAS](http://thomas.loc.gov/) which is just the next internet over. ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662/5 "2009-04-28T20:10:54Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] Do you, in fact, have any valid examples at all to offer of this nefariousness you allege? [/quote] I don’t think **Bricker** is alleging any nefarious intention on Obama’s part, but rather that it’s a promise he hasn’t been doing very well in keeping. One example could be the [Edward M. Kennedy Serve America Act](http://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics/AP/story/1010984.html). There are several possibilities, including (but not limited to): [ul] [li] Obama hasn’t given this as much priority as he originally intended[/li][li] Obama has been doing it, but it’s not easily found on the White House website[/li][/ul] I think the OP’s question is a perfectly valid one. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662/6 "2009-04-28T20:31:02Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > According to [wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilly_Ledbetter_Fair_Pay_Act), it was introduced in the Senate on January 8 and signed into law on the 29th. So three weeks. > > True, who knows if it was mentioned on the White House website, but surely it would have been on [THOMAS](http://thomas.loc.gov/) which is just the next internet over. If that’s the standard, **Kimmy** , it’s unclear to me what problem this promise was intended to fix, since every bill in the previous administration was posted on [thomas.loc.gov](http://thomas.loc.gov) when it was introduced in either the House or the Senate and the vast majority signed after more than five days had passed. In other words, if that sequence of events satisfies the promise, it was already happening with regularity. For this reason, I assumed that when he said it would be posted on the White House website for at least five days, he meant it would be posted on the White House website for at least five days. And I assumed he meant the final version of the bill, as it passed Congress, not the initial text of the bill as proposed. Do I understand your claim correctly? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662/7 "2009-04-28T20:35:02Z")
> [@LilShieste](#): > > I don’t think **Bricker** is alleging any nefarious intention on Obama’s part, but rather that it’s a promise he hasn’t been doing very well in keeping. > > One example could be the [Edward M. Kennedy Serve America Act](http://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics/AP/story/1010984.html). > > There are several possibilities, including (but not limited to): > [ul] > [li] Obama hasn’t given this as much priority as he originally intended[/li][li] Obama has been doing it, but it’s not easily found on the White House website[/li][/ul] > > I think the OP’s question is a perfectly valid one. Thank you. There are more examples – The Children’s Health Insurance Program Reauthorization Act of 2009 was signed into law the same day Congress presented it. The text of what turned out to be the final bill was posted on the White House site on 2/1/09, and it was signed on 2/4/09. A bill to designate the facility of the United States Postal Service located at 2105 East Cook Street in Springfield, Illinois, as the “Colonel John H. Wilson, Jr. Post Office Building” seems never to have been posted before it was signed; nor was the bill to provide for an additional temporary extension of programs under the Small Business Act and the Small Business Investment Act of 1958. It’s unlcear to me if ANY bill, apart from the DTV extension law mentioned above, HAS been posted for the requisite five days. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662/8 "2009-04-28T20:40:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > For this reason, I assumed that when he said it would be posted on the White House website for at least five days, he meant it would be posted on the White House website for at least five days. And I assumed he meant the final version of the bill, as it passed Congress, not the initial text of the bill as proposed. Well, according to that wikipedia article: > [@](#): > > On January 29, Obama signed the bill into law. It was the first act he signed as president, and it fulfilled his campaign pledge to nullify Ledbetter v. Goodyear. However, the fact that he signed it only two days after it was passed by the House brought him under criticism from papers such as the St. Petersburg Times which mentioned his campaign promise to give the public five days of notice to comment on legislation before he signed it. The White House through a spokesman answered that they would be “implementing this policy in full soon”, and that currently they were “working through implementation procedures and some initial issues with the congressional calendar”. And here’s the Saint Petersburg Times article the wikipedia article quotes: > **[Obameter: | PolitiFact](https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/234/allow-five-days-of-public-comment-before-signing-b/)** > > PolitiFact is a fact-checking website that rates the accuracy of claims by elected officials and others on its Truth-O-Meter. I think in all liklihood, the Obama administration just decided the campaign pledge wasn’t that important, and decided to break it. It’s not the first time, either for him, or for presidents in general. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662/9 "2009-04-28T20:41:31Z")
I think it is a stupid campaign promise. What’s the President going to do, veto a bill because the White House got a bunch of emails on the subject? A bill that, in all likelihood, is the product of days, weeks, or perhaps even months of congressional negotiations, often with White House involvement? Get real. The promise is blowing sunshine up the behind of certain gullible members of the public. As if the C-SPAN crowd really needs the bill to be posted on the White House website to find out what’s in it. It’s an empty promise for pointless transparency, and after looking at the exceptions to the policy, it looks like the White House is slowly backing away from it. It may be a broken campaign promise, but it was a dumb promise to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662/10 "2009-04-28T20:58:40Z")
I think your criticism is right on, **Bricker**. Perhaps **Ravenman** is right that it was a silly promise to make in the first place, but it’s not like it would have been a difficult one to keep. Even under his logic, it seems like the costs of keeping the promise are so small as to be outweighed by the benefit of making naive people think government is being more transparent. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662/11 "2009-04-28T21:09:53Z")
So in that case, the real issue is not that he failed to keep his promise but that he made it in the first place. IOW he was pretending to be “change” by something that was in reality virtually meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662/12 "2009-04-28T22:06:06Z")
Maybe there really are issues in getting the whole this working as they intend. Seems like it should be simple enough but I know from past experience things are not always as simple as they may seem at a glance. From the White House website: > [@](#): > > Update on Sunlight Before Signing > > As we’ve noted on the blog, the President has signed the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act and the Children’s Health Insurance Program Reauthorization Act. We’ve also published the DTV Delay Act of 2009. > > Since a few questions have come in, we want to update you on the President’s campaign commitment to introducing more sunlight into the lawmaking process by posting non-emergency legislation online for five days before signing it. This policy will be implemented in full soon; currently we are working through implementation procedures and some initial issues with the congressional calendar. > > The President remains committed to bringing more transparency to government, and in this spirit the White House will continue to publish legislation expected to come to his desk online for public comment as it moves through Congress. > > SOURCE: [http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog\_post/update\_on\_sunlight\_before\_signing/](http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog_post/update_on_sunlight_before_signing/) I’m willing to give them six months to sort this out (so 3(ish) months more from now). I think they all have a lot on their plate these days and I’d put this low on the priority list myself. That said I will be disappointed and take note if Obama fails on this and lets it slide. Surely he can have someone phone the computer web geeks and tell them to get it sorted ASAP. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662/13 "2009-04-28T22:24:39Z")
Well, I’ll go on record saying I’m disappointed this promise isn’t being kept. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662/14 "2009-04-28T22:28:56Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Maybe there really are issues in getting the whole this working as they intend. Seems like it should be simple enough but I know from past experience things are not always as simple as they may seem at a glance. > > From the White House website: > > I’m willing to give them six months to sort this out (so 3(ish) months more from now). I think they all have a lot on their plate these days and I’d put this low on the priority list myself. > > That said I will be disappointed and take note if Obama fails on this and lets it slide. Surely he can have someone phone the computer web geeks and tell them to get it sorted ASAP. What a complete crock of bullshit. There is no reason this can’t be implemented on Day One. This actually disappoints me more than him skirting the five day promise. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662/15 "2009-04-28T22:52:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If that’s the standard, **Kimmy** , it’s unclear to me what problem this promise was intended to fix, since every bill in the previous administration was posted on [thomas.loc.gov](http://thomas.loc.gov) when it was introduced in either the House or the Senate and the vast majority signed after more than five days had passed. In other words, if that sequence of events satisfies the promise, it was already happening with regularity. > > For this reason, I assumed that when he said it would be posted on the White House website for at least five days, he meant it would be posted on the White House website for at least five days. And I assumed he meant the final version of the bill, as it passed Congress, not the initial text of the bill as proposed. > > Do I understand your claim correctly? You understand correctly. And I’d even venture that it was nice-sounding campaign rhetoric addressing an imaginary problem. (Hastily passed bills that do occasion hand-wringing, the USA PATRIOT Act being the notable example, would surely be classified as emergency legislation). I think THOMAS works perfectly fine, and few bills make it from the hopper to the Oval Office in fewer than five days. I suppose there is the issue of amendments and conference reports, but overall, this just seems like so much “transparency theater.” If one is keeping score, then yes, this a campaign promise abandoned, but not a very important one, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Alienhand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8edcca/32.png) [@Alienhand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alienhand)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662/16 "2009-04-28T23:26:51Z")
I’m disappointed that Obama has fallen short on this promise. However, there does appear to be some problems with implementing the promise. “Sunlight before Signing” is not directly addressed but the general problems are addressed in this [article](http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/04/03/google_on_washington/) from The Register with Google’s Director of Global Public Policy Andrew McLaughlin, who was part of the transition team. > [@](#): > > “The kind of things that we were trying to do would be regarded as kindergarten-level, rudimentary technology implementations in the Silicon Valley, private-sector, tech-startup kind of world. But in government, they’re viewed as a massive revolution in both form and approach.” > … > “The problem is that everything must be kept on paper,” McLaughlin says. “So, government web masters have to sit and print snapshots of their websites on paper. If you do a blog post, you have to print it. This is a real pain, particularly if the site does comments. You have to print out all the comments too.” > … > When Mr. McLaughlin went to Washington, he assumed that all this could be changed in an instant with a presidential order or two. But he was wrong. “I wrote the draft. But it didn’t happen.” It’s not high on my list so I’m willing to give them a few more months before I cry foul. ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662/17 "2009-04-29T01:50:53Z")
> [@Alienhand](#): > > “Sunlight before Signing” is not directly addressed but the general problems are addressed in this [article](http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/04/03/google_on_washington/) from The Register with Google’s Director of Global Public Policy Andrew McLaughlin, who was part of the transition team. > > > [@](#): > > > > “The kind of things that we were trying to do would be regarded as kindergarten-level, rudimentary technology implementations in the Silicon Valley, private-sector, tech-startup kind of world. But in government, they’re viewed as a massive revolution in both form and approach.” > > … > > “The problem is that everything must be kept on paper,” McLaughlin says. **“So, government web masters have to sit and print snapshots of their websites on paper. If you do a blog post, you have to print it. This is a real pain, particularly if the site does comments. You have to print out all the comments too.”** > > … > > When Mr. McLaughlin went to Washington, he assumed that all this could be changed in an instant with a presidential order or two. But he was wrong. “I wrote the draft. But it didn’t happen.” (bolding mine) I think I’ve just found a problem that needs to be assigned a higher priority. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662/18 "2009-04-29T04:39:06Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > What a complete crock of bullshit. There is no reason this can’t be implemented on Day One. This actually disappoints me more than him skirting the five day promise. And you know this how? Maybe it is simple, push a button and it happens thing. Then again maybe not. In my professional (computer related) career I can guarantee you that seemingly simple problems can be perversely complex. At first glance the nuts and bolts seem simple (e.g. cut and paste bill to web site, wait five days) but the implementation can be screwy in all sorts of ways. They could be bullshitting us or there could be real issues there. Unless you are privvy to the inner workings of all this I maintain you cannot pass judgment one way or another on this. I agree it looks dodgy from my armchair but willing to give a bit of latitude here. If he doesn’t deliver though then count me among the seriously disappointed as it looks even more like a dodge, “I want to avoid/hide shit” sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662/19 "2009-04-29T08:04:43Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > And you know this how? > > Maybe it is simple, push a button and it happens thing. > > Then again maybe not. > > In my professional (computer related) career I can guarantee you that seemingly simple problems can be perversely complex. At first glance the nuts and bolts seem simple (e.g. cut and paste bill to web site, wait five days) but the implementation can be screwy in all sorts of ways. > > They could be bullshitting us or there could be real issues there. Unless you are privvy to the inner workings of all this I maintain you cannot pass judgment one way or another on this. I agree it looks dodgy from my armchair but willing to give a bit of latitude here. If he doesn’t deliver though then count me among the seriously disappointed as it looks even more like a dodge, “I want to avoid/hide shit” sort of thing. Sure, the technical aspects may cause a delay i_n getting it posted_. But, I can’t fathom anything preventing Obama—you know, The President—from simply starting the clock from after it is posted. If he wanted it done, it would get done. “But hey, let’s just shove through a bunch of gnarly stuff for the first six months, okay boss?” “Good idea, Rahm.” ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662/20 "2009-04-29T10:28:32Z")
To me, the thing about stuff like this isn’t that I think it is a big deal. To be honest I don’t think the President or the Congress owe us x number of days to look over their legislation. This is a Republic, they are in charge, we elect them to be in charge. The process for rectifying bad leadership is through periodic elections, if the body public views certain legislation negatively it will certainly be very well known and understood by the members of the public interested in knowing about it well before election day–which is the only deadline the public truly has. What it’s about to me is that many Obamites, during the campaign season, very much bought into the idea that Obama was no mere politician. He was a second coming of Lincoln, he was going to change how things were done in Washington! (Never mind that virtually every major candidate since Reagan has campaigned on “change” to some degree; and many before as well.) I think what I really want from the hardcore Obama supporters from the election is some admission that the man is a politician at his core, that’s what he is, and he’s very successful at being a politician. He says things to make people happy, even when he doesn’t really know if he can deliver on what he is saying. He does that because that is what politicians do and that is how politicians win elections. It doesn’t make him a bad person, it doesn’t make all politicians bad people (although many are.) What it means is that you have to make a lot of promises to get elected to any office, and more so to the Presidency than with any other office in this country. To me, a campaign platform is nothing more than a **general** set of goals. Realists understand that reality is always changing, a specific promise made in August of 2008 may simply not be feasible to uphold in April of 2009. I view specific promises made during the campaign as “things the President might like to do, but we can’t really say for sure what we’ll be able to do until we’re in the White House.” This Republican is still “more approving” than “disapproving” of President Obama. He’s running at around a 60% approval rating right now and I’d say if I had to give him a grade as President 60-65% is about where I’d stand on it. However I still do not have much respect for his supporters who are still to this day “drinking the kool-aid.” It’s time to man up and admit the man is a shrewd politician, not some starry-eyed idealist hell bent on rebuilding our government and how it works from the ground-up. Get serious people, he’s not a bringer of dramatic change on the fundamental level of our government. He will certainly govern differently than any other President–but the Presidency has only been held by a very, very small number of men, all of them different individuals. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662.md?page=2)