# "Sunlight Before Signing" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 28, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662 "2009-04-28T19:56:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662/21 "2009-04-29T10:30:51Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Well, I’ll go on record saying I’m disappointed this promise isn’t being kept. Ditto. I’m not convinced it was a sensible promise to make nor one that could be easily implemented, nor that it is ultimately that big a deal in the grand scheme of things, but regardless it was made and seems to have been cavalierly broken. Boo. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662/22 "2009-04-29T10:40:58Z")
The answer to the OP is simple: they’ve not yet implemented this promise, but are working on it. It has technical aspects that prevent the President from simply saying: “I’m waiting five days from when you put this up to have a signing ceremony.” So not a promise broken, just one not fulfilled yet. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662/23 "2009-04-29T10:52:12Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > And you know this how? > > Maybe it is simple, push a button and it happens thing. > > Then again maybe not. > > In my professional (computer related) career I can guarantee you that seemingly simple problems can be perversely complex. At first glance the nuts and bolts seem simple (e.g. cut and paste bill to web site, wait five days) but the implementation can be screwy in all sorts of ways. Eh? I really can’t come up with any reason why posting a bill on the WH webpage would be technically hard. I’m not really buying the “difficult to implement”. I’d actually bet the real reason for the delay is that Obama planned to put implementing it, along with other, more complicated “sunshine” policies under a yet to be confirmed member of his administration (such as the still pending Chief Technology Officer). Not an excuse, I agree he should’ve kept his promise and gone ahead and got an intern or something to cut and paste the bills onto [WH.gov](http://WH.gov), but it seems a much more plausible reason then the “to hard to implement” one. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662/24 "2009-04-30T00:17:22Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > The answer to the OP is simple: they’ve not yet implemented this promise, but are working on it. It has technical aspects that prevent the President from simply saying: “I’m waiting five days from when you put this up to have a signing ceremony.” So not a promise broken, just one not fulfilled yet. What might those technical aspects be? What prevents him from waiting the five days? ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662/25 "2009-04-30T01:47:04Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > What a complete crock of bullshit. There is no reason this can’t be implemented on Day One. This actually disappoints me more than him skirting the five day promise. There were more than a few stories about staffers not having computers at their desks, or having major interoperability problems (because they came into a Windowsified government with private sector Macs) for more than three weeks after inauguration day. Sounds like a technical reason to me! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662/26 "2009-04-30T12:59:44Z")
Put me down as another vote for this being a failure by the Obama administration. I don’t feel this was a major issue of the campaign but Obama declared a policy and I don’t see any serious reason why he couldn’t have followed it but he has not. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662/27 "2009-04-30T13:43:13Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > This Republican is still “more approving” than “disapproving” of President Obama. He’s running at around a 60% approval rating right now and I’d say if I had to give him a grade as President 60-65% is about where I’d stand on it. Maybe I’ve been hearing too much about CNN and Blitzer’s demands for letter grades from everyone but do you mean “I’d give him a 60-65%” as “He’s doing somewhat better than worse” or “I’d give him a low D”? I have no problem admitting that Obama is a politican. I wouldn’t say “at his core” because it gives the impression that he cares primarily about getting elected moreso than the office itself and what he can accomplish for the nation. That’s not a charge I’d level at most of our elected officials, Democrat or Republican. I’m disappointed that he hasn’t followed through on the 5-Day window and hope it’s delayed rather than discarded but, until it happens, I’ll be willing to say that it’s a disappointment. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662/28 "2009-04-30T14:33:45Z")
Frankly the time to comment on bills is when they are in Congress - people have far more sway over an individual senator or congressman than they do on whether the President signs the thing. Especially considering veto overrides. So I think Thomas serves this function well, and President Obama ought to just break the promise and be done with it. I won’t be disappointed if he does. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662/29 "2009-04-30T16:03:30Z")
The Sunlight thing was never on my radar. Frankly, I think it’s a bad idea. Look at how badly the SDMB community reacts to proposed rule change announcements. Is anything productive ever said? Are the rules ever changed? Not really; there’s just a lot of heated talk. Now multiply that by 300,000 and drop the average IQ by a third. However, I have heard a number of stories about how flabbergastingly Stone-Aged the White House computer system is. I think they were running email off of Bernie Madoff’s AS/400. Then in sweeps a techno-geek with a Blackberry, who has some understanding of computer networking, and they can’t even get their shit set up during the transition period. It had to be frustrating. Sure, he could wait 5 days before signing anything. That would technically fulfill the promise. But what good is the 5-day waiting period if they can’t get the damn bill posted for the citizens to see? If part of “bringing change to Washington” is bringing a 21st-century Information-age mindset to government, then surely part of that is kicking the dinosaur bureaucracy into action on replacing its outdated technology and methods. I’d wager that’s going to be a lot more complicated than simply buying a new laptop and WiFi card for the Oval Office. Either Obama knew that the White House was technologically stunted, in which case he should’ve appended his promise with, “And it might take some time,” or he had no idea how difficult it would be to change the petrified policies of the existing staff. I vote for the latter. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662/30 "2009-04-30T16:10:59Z")
So it’s taking a little time to implement. Who gives a shit? It would be stupid to intentionally delay signing legislation over this. It’s not like the people bitching about it actually want to READ this stuff. It’s just cheap shot material. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662/31 "2009-04-30T16:17:42Z")
> [@LilShieste](#): > > (bolding mine) > > I think I’ve just found a problem that needs to be assigned a higher priority. 😃 The problem with that is the Presidential Records Act. They’d either have to work around it, or revise it, to NOT be required to keep a paper record. Well, that’s if they want to stay within the law, a procedure that the last administration solved by simply not caring about doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662/32 "2009-04-30T17:36:01Z")
> [@](#): > > So it’s taking a little time to implement. Who gives a shit? It would be stupid to intentionally delay signing legislation over this. It’s not like the people bitching about it actually want to READ this stuff. It’s just cheap shot material. But Obama made it an issue. It’s not so much the actual issue of being able to read the bills for five days. It’s that he pledged he was going to follow a policy and now he’s abandoned it for no apparent good reason. So it becomes a credibility issue. I can’t see how this is something that would have been difficult to implement. Obviously a copy of the bill exists to be sent to the White House for a signature. It probably already exists in electronic form but if not, I’m pretty sure the White House must have a scanner. And they’ve got a website. So post a copy online for five days and let people email in their comments. Obama never promised he was going to read every comment or put his approval up for a vote. It would have been a trivially easy pledge to have kept. Instead it’s become a broken promise. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662/33 "2009-04-30T17:57:40Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But Obama made it an issue. It’s not so much the actual issue of being able to read the bills for five days. It’s that he pledged he was going to follow a policy and now he’s abandoned it for no apparent good reason. So it becomes a credibility issue. He hasn’t abandoned it, he’s implementing it. > [@](#): > > I can’t see how this is something that would have been difficult to implement. Obviously a copy of the bill exists to be sent to the White House for a signature. It probably already exists in electronic form but if not, I’m pretty sure the White House must have a scanner. And they’ve got a website. So post a copy online for five days and let people email in their comments. Obama never promised he was going to read every comment or put his approval up for a vote. It would have been a trivially easy pledge to have kept. Instead it’s become a broken promise. You don’t have the slightest idea how easy it would be. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662/34 "2009-04-30T19:23:00Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It’s that he pledged he was going to follow a policy and now he’s abandoned it for no apparent good reason. So it becomes a credibility issue. For you, perhaps. I would phrase it as, “He hasn’t yet implemented the promised policy.” I have heard some of the reasons and they seem sound to me. Government doesn’t turn on a dime. What makes you think the government _could_ just simply pop a few web pages up without ten miles of red tape? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662/35 "2009-04-30T20:10:31Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You don’t have the slightest idea how easy it would be. Actually, it _would_ be trivially easy. It would be preferred that they use a proper comments system, but in the meantime it would a single webmaster take less than half an hour to implement the email-based system **Little Nemo** suggested. After the first one, you’d be down to less than a minute per bill. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662/36 "2009-04-30T21:48:03Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > He hasn’t abandoned it, he’s implementing it. More correctly, he implemented it, abandoned it, and now claims to be implementing it again. There didn’t seem to be any problem at all doing it initially. > [@](#): > > You don’t have the slightest idea how easy it would be. No, we do. It’s very simple. It can be _made_ to be very complicated if you need an excuse not to do it. But posting a bunch of text on a website is trivial. He’s the most powerful man in the world. If he wanted it on the website, it would be on the website. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662/37 "2009-04-30T21:52:39Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Actually, it _would_ be trivially easy. It would be preferred that they use a proper comments system, but in the meantime it would a single webmaster take less than half an hour to implement the email-based system **Little Nemo** suggested. After the first one, you’d be down to less than a minute per bill. I agree–I’m no web guru, but I can’t imagine why it would be technically difficult. For folks claiming it would, could you at least blow some smoke up our ass about why it would be difficult? It seems to me like a bad idea for emergency legislation, and that’s a lot of what Obama’s been dealing with lately: extremely urgent stimulus packages, things that are getting passed very quickly. I’m okay with his not putting those up for five days, although I’d like for him to come out and say it. But for routine things like annual budgets, they really ought to go up. Let bloggers pick them apart; maybe bloggers will find something that some asshole politician’s managed to slip in, find a reason why the bill as submitted should be vetoed. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662/38 "2009-04-30T22:01:17Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I agree–I’m no web guru, but I can’t imagine why it would be technically difficult. For folks claiming it would, could you at least blow some smoke up our ass about why it would be difficult? > > It seems to me like a bad idea for emergency legislation, and that’s a lot of what Obama’s been dealing with lately: extremely urgent stimulus packages, things that are getting passed very quickly. I’m okay with his not putting those up for five days, although I’d like for him to come out and say it. But for routine things like annual budgets, they really ought to go up. Let bloggers pick them apart; maybe bloggers will find something that some asshole politician’s managed to slip in, find a reason why the bill as submitted should be vetoed. His original promise specified non-emergency legislation, so I don’t even think he needs to clarify that now – or did you mean, “…clarify that legislation not posted does qualify as ‘emergency?’” ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662/39 "2009-04-30T22:25:25Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I agree–I’m no web guru, but I can’t imagine why it would be technically difficult. For folks claiming it would, could you at least blow some smoke up our ass about why it would be difficult? Technology is not the problem. That the law has not kept up with technology is. _Can_ any old webmaster sling together some code and slap up a website in seconds? Yes. The technology is explicitly designed to do so. _Legally_, what hurdles must be cleared before information can be released? Must it be duplicated on paper, must it be printed? Must the HTML code be released as part of the Freedom of Information Act, or is the webpage alone sufficient? Must the information be proofread, must it be vetted by national security wonks, must it be organized? Are the original documents in a compatible format? Are they available electronically? Must someone type them in by hand? The laws governing information in the White House could potentially be arcane and complex beyond my understanding. _Everything_ is kept there, every record, every email, every file. Under whose auspices is this information released? Is it technically an Executive or a Legislative move? Where does the budget come from? Who releases the money for making the technical upgrades, who hires the staff, what kind of security clearance will he need? Who pays his salary? Who’s going to make sure the website is secure against hacker attack? How many separate departments must be made to march in the same direction before this change can be made? I have no idea. Maybe you do. But I’m pretty damned sure it isn’t as easy as grabbing some space on [angelfire.com](http://angelfire.com) and slapping up some HTML. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2009, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662/40 "2009-04-30T22:34:24Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > _Legally_, what hurdles must be cleared before information can be released? Must it be duplicated on paper, must it be printed? Must the HTML code be released as part of the Freedom of Information Act, or is the webpage alone sufficient? Must the information be proofread, must it be vetted by national security wonks, must it be organized? Are the original documents in a compatible format? Are they available electronically? Must someone type them in by hand? The laws governing information in the White House could potentially be arcane and complex beyond my understanding. _Everything_ is kept there, every record, every email, every file. Under whose auspices is this information released? Is it technically an Executive or a Legislative move? Where does the budget come from? Who releases the money for making the technical upgrades, who hires the staff, what kind of security clearance will he need? Who pays his salary? Who’s going to make sure the website is secure against hacker attack? How many separate departments must be made to march in the same direction before this change can be made? Yea, but they already released the text of several laws in the manner required by Obama’s campaign promise, and so far as I know, there wasn’t any legal problems with those, so I doubt legal requirements are the problem. And more generally, [whitehouse.gov](http://whitehouse.gov) already exists, and has for more then a decade. Presumably whatever legal maneuvers needed to post documents on it are already well understood and there are procedures established for doing so. They’re not exactly breaking some uncharted legal territory here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sunlight-before-signing/494662.md?page=3)