# 'Sup? Home, or Holmes? \[Slang term\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 7, 2015, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sup-home-or-holmes-slang-term/712043 "2015-02-07T15:13:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2015, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sup-home-or-holmes-slang-term/712043/21 "2015-02-07T22:36:06Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > There is an instance of it being used [in 1978](https://www.google.com/search?q=%22what+up+holmes%22&btnG=Search+Books&tbm=bks&tbo=1&gws_rd=ssl#tbs=cdr:1%2Ccd_min:1900%2Ccd_max:1999&tbm=bks&q=%22hey+holmes%22+-sherlock) in the Low Rider journal citation: And interestingly the earliest instance of “Hey, homes” [is from 1974](https://books.google.com/books?id=kCArAQAAIAAJ&q=%22hey+homes%22+-sherlock&dq=%22hey+homes%22+-sherlock&hl=en&sa=X&ei=j5HWVKzbM6a8mQWwzYGYBQ&redir_esc=y). And in both cases the phrase is attributed to poor Hispanics. So it seems that the phrase is a “Hispanic gang” thing rather than “Black gang”. And it seems that whether it was Holmes or homes was unclear right from the beginning. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2015, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sup-home-or-holmes-slang-term/712043/22 "2015-02-07T22:50:24Z")
> [@vomit\_comet](#): > > It’s Hommes, actually… as in Man, in French. Hmm, given the apparent Hispanic origin, I wonder if it “hombre” isn’t a more plausible origin. That would also make it it easier to explain “home boy”. No evidence for any of this of course. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2015, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sup-home-or-holmes-slang-term/712043/23 "2015-02-07T23:46:24Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Just for the record, and this being SD and all, OP phrase in question is Black lower-class slang from some 40 years ago. > > Does P.C. require no mention of ethnicity or other ID unless it’s in the context of expressing solidarity with injustices or reclaiming something wonderfully fantabulous? > > “Urban” since I don’t know how long has been the P.C.–actually, a plain old euphemism, way before “P.C.” was developed as a term by the Left–meaning almost always African-American lower class. > > JFTR. I’m not picking a fight with OP or starting up some language/politics thing. You say you’re not starting up some language/politics thing and yet here you are. The OP asked a etymological question. Why mention race? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2015, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sup-home-or-holmes-slang-term/712043/24 "2015-02-07T23:49:19Z")
> [@Lare](#): > > Except for when Dr. Watson was trying to be street, of course. [Since you didn’t ask](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17CLlZuiBkQ) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2015, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sup-home-or-holmes-slang-term/712043/25 "2015-02-08T00:13:41Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Leo Bloom** : > > Just for the record, and this being SD and all, OP phrase in question is Black lower-class slang from some 40 years ago. > > Does P.C. require no mention of ethnicity or other ID unless it’s in the context of expressing solidarity with injustices or reclaiming something wonderfully fantabulous? > > “Urban” since I don’t know how long has been the P.C.–actually, a plain old euphemism, way before “P.C.” was developed as a term by the Left–meaning almost always African-American lower class. Actually, the OP had it right the first time. This particular variety of slang is common to both inner-city whites and inner-city blacks, and is rare amongst suburban blacks unless they’re deliberately affecting an urban dialect. Since the inner cities tend to skew black and the suburbs tend to skew white, it’s not wholly inaccurate to call this “black slang”, but it’s far more accurate to call it “urban slang” (or, if you prefer, “ghetto slang”). ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2015, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sup-home-or-holmes-slang-term/712043/26 "2015-02-08T01:01:13Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > And interestingly the earliest instance of “Hey, homes” [is from 1974](https://books.google.com/books?id=kCArAQAAIAAJ&q=%22hey+homes%22+-sherlock&dq=%22hey+homes%22+-sherlock&hl=en&sa=X&ei=j5HWVKzbM6a8mQWwzYGYBQ&redir_esc=y). And in both cases the phrase is attributed to poor Hispanics. > > So it seems that the phrase is a “Hispanic gang” thing rather than “Black gang”. Yeah, I personally associate “Holmes” with Hispanic culture myself, too. But that’s because that’s where I would have heard it from in my neighborhood. The street gangs around here tended to be either white or Latino. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2015, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sup-home-or-holmes-slang-term/712043/27 "2015-02-08T01:04:30Z")
I’m sure I’ve heard people say “Holmes”, and a quick search on Google Books turns up a number of instances of this being used in print (many of the hits involve a character actually named Holmes, but there are some where it’s a generic greeting). I would assume this is just a variation on the more common “homes” and that it probably originated as either a mistake or a joke. > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The OP phrase in question is “'Sup? Holmes”, which is not 40 years old as far as I can tell. The OED doesn’t have an entry for “Holmes” in this sense, but it does have “homes”, “home”, “homie”, and “homeboy”. The OED’s earliest citation for “Hey, Homes!” is 1971, and “home” as a form of address dates back to the 1940s. “Homie” is even older, with citations from 1929 and 1937. “Homeboy” as a slang term for one’s friends is cited going back to 1965, but was used in the slightly different sense of a man from one’s hometown or region a century before that. ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2015, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sup-home-or-holmes-slang-term/712043/28 "2015-02-08T01:34:21Z")
Doesn’t Chevy Chase address someone as “Holmes” when he gets lost in East St Louis (?) in Vacation? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2015, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sup-home-or-holmes-slang-term/712043/29 "2015-02-08T02:57:00Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > The OED doesn’t have an entry for “Holmes” in this sense, but it does have “homes”, “home”, “homie”, and “homeboy”. The OED’s earliest citation for “Hey, Homes!” is 1971, and “home” as a form of address dates back to the 1940s. “Homie” is even older, with citations from 1929 and 1937. “Homeboy” as a slang term for one’s friends is cited going back to 1965, but was used in the slightly different sense of a man from one’s hometown or region a century before that. My point is that Holmes is not necessarily homes. It may be, or may be a later variation, or may be a pun, or may be all sorts of things. But giving dates for homes does not give dates for Holmes. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2015, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sup-home-or-holmes-slang-term/712043/30 "2015-02-08T04:24:55Z")
I’ve know it as “Holmes” and associate it with Latinos, I’m Californian, which I suspect makes a difference. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2015, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sup-home-or-holmes-slang-term/712043/31 "2015-02-08T04:41:50Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Yeah, I personally associate “Holmes” with Hispanic culture myself, too. But that’s because that’s where I would have heard it from in my neighborhood. The street gangs around here tended to be either white or Latino. Yeah, I recall it as LA Latino slang from the 80s while I was there. Jaime Hernandez used ‘Holmes’ as such in Love and Rockets in the mid to late 80s in his ‘Maggie and Hopey’ and ‘Vida Locas’ comics set in the fictional SoCal barrio of Hoppers 13. So I learned to associate ‘home’ or ‘homeboy’ with black culture and ‘Holmes’ with Latino culture. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2015, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sup-home-or-holmes-slang-term/712043/32 "2015-02-08T06:05:04Z")
I was hearing “Homes” and “Homeboy” in the USMC in 1971. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2015, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sup-home-or-holmes-slang-term/712043/33 "2015-02-08T06:22:12Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The OP phrase in question is “'Sup? Holmes”, which is not 40 years old as far as I can tell. Nor is there proof or even evidence that it is black or urban or lower-class or from any particular subculture. So why should he mention any of those things? I only knew of black/urban/lower-class people saying it before the early 90s. Don’t know why you didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2015, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sup-home-or-holmes-slang-term/712043/34 "2015-02-08T07:26:20Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > it seems that the phrase is a “Hispanic gang” thing rather than “Black gang” Going by the movies, absolutely. It’s all over _Blood In, Blood Out_, for one thing. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![TwoCarrotSnowman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/twocarrotsnowman/32/15879_2.png) [@TwoCarrotSnowman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwoCarrotSnowman)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2015, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sup-home-or-holmes-slang-term/712043/35 "2015-02-08T11:03:02Z")
I realise this isn’t much of a cite, and I’m offering it as a corroborating data point only. 🙂 In Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, there is a Hispanic character who routinely refers to the player character as “Holmes”. It’s spelled this way in the subtitles, and it’s clearly used as an expression of friendship / respect. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2015, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sup-home-or-holmes-slang-term/712043/36 "2015-02-08T20:05:23Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > My point is that Holmes is not necessarily homes. It may be, or may be a later variation, or may be a pun, or may be all sorts of things. But giving dates for homes does not give dates for Holmes. Pamela Munro’s _Slang U_, Richard Spears’ _Slang American Style_, _McGraw-Hill’s Dictionary of American Slang and Colloquial Expressions_, and Paul Dickson’s _Slang_ all list “holmes” as a variation of “homes”, and in the absence of any evidence to the contrary it seems likely that two nearly identical slang terms that are used in exactly the same context are related. While I haven’t found any dictionary or book of slang giving a date for “holmes”, **pulykamell** has already provided a cite from a 1978 issue of _Lowrider_ magazine. So although I think **Leo Bloom** ’s posts in this thread have been strange and rather offensive, it looks like he’s right about “holmes” being used as a form of address nearly 40 years ago. Since “homes” dates back to at least 1971, it’s at least plausible that “holmes” was in use even earlier than 1978. ---
**Author:** ![MsKaren](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a183cd/32.png) [@MsKaren](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsKaren)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2015, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sup-home-or-holmes-slang-term/712043/37 "2015-02-08T20:51:03Z")
This is just another recollection but in the '70’s routines Cheech called Chong what I heard as ‘Homes.’ I suppose it might show up at IMDB in their movie quotes. Those are all past the time period we have currently established, anyway. I brought it up to toss on the Hispanic L.A. origin side. Isn’t there a SD member whose user name is heyhomie? Would he be an expert here? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ALOHA\_HATER](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/76d3ee/32.png) [@ALOHA\_HATER](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ALOHA_HATER)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2015, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sup-home-or-holmes-slang-term/712043/38 "2015-02-08T21:09:53Z")
There’s a linguistic term I can’t remember for shortening a term and appending an s. More common in UK English. It’s a diminutive, familiar kind of nicknamey thing. I strongly suspect that “Holmes” is more commonly a misused homophone than a term/joke in itself. It’s just “homes,” short for homeboy or homie, right? ---
**Author:** ![Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8c91f0/32.png) [@Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bam_Boo_Gut)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2015, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sup-home-or-holmes-slang-term/712043/39 "2015-02-09T19:36:19Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Hi dudes, \*\*Leo \*\*here. > > “''Sup ma niggahs?”–even a Brit suburban white thought that was cool enough to say in the (great) movie _Sean the Dead_from some years ago. Shaun of the Dead Great film! ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2015, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sup-home-or-holmes-slang-term/712043/40 "2015-02-09T21:22:22Z")
For what it’s worth, I heard this a lot and even saw it spelled out a few times and it was always “homes,” a standard shortening of “homeboy.” There was never any implication of Sherlock Holmes, and I would be startled if the people using this term thought much about Arthur Conan Doyle’s _oeuvre_. I tbink thisis likely to be classic false etymology. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sup-home-or-holmes-slang-term/712043.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sup-home-or-holmes-slang-term/712043.md?page=3)