# Super strong, but not invulnerable (a question for comics Dopers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 24, 2006, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/super-strong-but-not-invulnerable-a-question-for-comics-dopers/373938 "2006-09-24T13:34:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/super-strong-but-not-invulnerable-a-question-for-comics-dopers/373938/21 "2006-09-26T00:06:48Z")
[QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer] The problem with that, of course, is that Superman is not an elephant, much less a giant. He’s the same size and weight as an ordinary man – okay, a slightly larger than average ordinary man; according to the movies, 6’4" and about 225 lbs. For his punches to do the damage they’re presented as doing, he’d have to be moving his hands much more quickly than generally presented–faster even than bullets, I’d guess. (F=MA, anyone?), so a punch from him should work the same way a bullet does. But he and the vast majority of super-strong characters are presented as often moving at speeds perceptible to ordinary humans when, logically, their superstrong punches should also be superfast. [/QUOTE] Duh, they’re not actually filming those fights, Skald. What you see is merely an artist’s interpretation. If you read the reports on the Superman/Doomsday fight it says that they were actually moving so fast that all the onlookers saw were blurs, and, I believe, sometimes not even that. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/super-strong-but-not-invulnerable-a-question-for-comics-dopers/373938/22 "2006-09-26T00:10:53Z")
[QUOTE=Cisco] Duh, they’re not actually filming those fights, Skald. What you see is merely an artist’s interpretation. If you read the reports on the Superman/Doomsday fight it says that they were actually moving so fast that all the onlookers saw were blurs, and, I believe, sometimes not even that. [/QUOTE] _Superman II & IV. Matrix: Revolutions. Smallville_. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Il\_Palazzo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Lord\_Il\_Palazzo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Il_Palazzo)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/super-strong-but-not-invulnerable-a-question-for-comics-dopers/373938/23 "2006-09-26T00:27:46Z")
[QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer] The problem with that, of course, is that Superman is not an elephant, much less a giant. He’s the same size and weight as an ordinary man – okay, a slightly larger than average ordinary man; according to the movies, 6’4" and about 225 lbs. For his punches to do the damage they’re presented as doing, he’d have to be moving his hands much more quickly than generally presented–faster even than bullets, I’d guess. (F=MA, anyone?), so a punch from him should work the same way a bullet does. But he and the vast majority of super-strong characters are presented as often moving at speeds perceptible to ordinary humans when, logically, their superstrong punches should also be superfast. [/QUOTE] Yes, but let’s assume for the moment that Superman punches with force exactly equal to the force of a bullet and let us call this force F (measured in pounds). Let us further assume that the surface area of Superman’s fist that comes in contact with Wonder Woman when he punches her is approximately 10 square inches (mine is about 8.75, so 9 for Superman isn’t much of a stretch.) Thus the pressure produced on Wonder Woman’s skin by a punch from Superman would be F/10 psi. Meanwhile, the surface area of the part of a bullet that would come into contact with Wonder Woman’s skin if she failed to deflect is is quite small. Assuming that the full frontal area of a bullet with diameter of 9 mm were to impact her skin (an obvious overstatement as bullets tend to be pointed) the impact area would still be only [0.0986069366 square inches.](http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2005-42,GGLG:en&q=convert+%28%289mm%29%5E2%29%2Api%2F4+to+in%5E2) This would result in a pressure against the skin of F/0.0986069366 psi (10.141F psi if we simplify our fraction.) Thus, if my assumptions were dead-on, the bullet would apply 101.41 times as much pressure as Superman’s fist. However, as I stated above, I greatly overestimated the area of the bullet that will impact Wonder Woman’s skin. Bullets are usually pointed (or at least rounded) after all. So the impact area would be far smaller resulting in a far larger pressure (P=F/A, as A approaches 0, P approaches infinity.) Thus, it is quite logical that a that a pointed projectile (such as a bullet) would inflict more damage to Wonder Woman than a blunt force such as a punch (even from Superman.) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/super-strong-but-not-invulnerable-a-question-for-comics-dopers/373938/24 "2006-09-26T00:30:48Z")
All the people enhanced by the Power Broker; they got strength, but that’s all. Tigra could lift 5 tons IIRC, but was as squishy as a normal person; she just dodged a lot. Dr Octopus is squishy flesh, except for his robotic tentacles. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/super-strong-but-not-invulnerable-a-question-for-comics-dopers/373938/25 "2006-09-26T01:14:11Z")
[QUOTE=Lord Il Palazzo] Yes, but let’s assume for the moment that Superman punches with force exactly equal to the force of a bullet and let us call this force F (measured in pounds). [/quote] That’s a really bad assumption. Superman regularly knocks holes in armor plate, brick walls, spaceship hulls, and other surfaces off which a bullet would typically bounce, leaving only superficiaal damage. > [@](#): > > Let us further assume that the surface area of Superman’s fist that comes in contact with Wonder Woman when he punches her is approximately 10 square inches (mine is about 8.75, so 9 for Superman isn’t much of a stretch.) Thus the pressure produced on Wonder Woman’s skin by a punch from Superman would be F/10 psi. This conversation is too geeky even for me. I feel my penis shrinking merely from thinking about the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/super-strong-but-not-invulnerable-a-question-for-comics-dopers/373938/26 "2006-09-26T02:22:15Z")
I don’t think those super-punches can be calculated strictly on the basis of what their arm weighs and how fast it’s moving. I thought Superman and company all basicly had a form of super-Chi; you know, the master who can rest his fist against a board, twitch his arm and have the board break. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/super-strong-but-not-invulnerable-a-question-for-comics-dopers/373938/27 "2006-09-26T02:25:42Z")
[QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer] _Superman II & IV. Matrix: Revolutions. Smallville_. [/QUOTE] Actors playing a role. You don’t expect Martin Sheen to actually sign bills into law, do you? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/super-strong-but-not-invulnerable-a-question-for-comics-dopers/373938/28 "2006-09-26T04:47:17Z")
> [@](#): > > He’s the same size and weight as an ordinary man – okay, a slightly larger than average ordinary man; according to the movies, 6’4" and about 225 lbs. OK, the same height as a not-too-extraordinary man; I’ll give you that. But how do you get an accurate measurement of his weight? I’ve seen the argument made that Superman’s body is actually made of degenerate matter, so he should have at least the same density as a white dwarf (if not a neutron star). The only reason that he doesn’t sink through floors is that he’s actually constantly applying his flight ability to almost-completely cancel his weight (all but, say, 225 pounds). So a normal-speed punch from him would still hurt, a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/super-strong-but-not-invulnerable-a-question-for-comics-dopers/373938/29 "2006-09-26T09:58:51Z")
[QUOTE=Chronos] OK, the same height as a not-too-extraordinary man; I’ll give you that. But how do you get an accurate measurement of his weight? I’ve seen the argument made that Superman’s body is actually made of degenerate matter, so he should have at least the same density as a white dwarf (if not a neutron star). The only reason that he doesn’t sink through floors is that he’s actually constantly applying his flight ability to almost-completely cancel his weight (all but, say, 225 pounds). So a normal-speed punch from him would still hurt, a lot. [/QUOTE] In Superman I, Lois asks Kal what he weighs, and he replies that it’s about 225. In Returns, Jason is quizzing her on the man in tights, and she, quite irritated, repeats the earlier answer. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/super-strong-but-not-invulnerable-a-question-for-comics-dopers/373938/30 "2006-09-26T10:48:50Z")
[QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer] In Superman I, Lois asks Kal what he weighs, and he replies that it’s about 225. In Returns, Jason is quizzing her on the man in tights, and she, quite irritated, repeats the earlier answer. [/QUOTE] Yes, but that’s what he _weighs_, not what he _masses_. Duh. 😃 OTOH, has anyone ever carried an unconscious Superman? Even if his flight passively cancelled the downwards force due to gravity, he would still have much more inertia than a battleship, so any non-superstrong character’s ability to get him moving would be negligible. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/super-strong-but-not-invulnerable-a-question-for-comics-dopers/373938/31 "2006-09-26T11:37:44Z")
[QUOTE=Malacandra] Yes, but that’s what he _weighs_, not what he _masses_. Duh. 😃 OTOH, has anyone ever carried an unconscious Superman? Even if his flight passively cancelled the downwards force due to gravity, he would still have much more inertia than a battleship, so any non-superstrong character’s ability to get him moving would be negligible. [/QUOTE] I seem to recall an episode of the 50s Superman series in which Jimmy Olsen tried to move an unconscious Clark Kent and couldn’t budge him; it was clear that he weighed far more than Jimmy expected (even given the fact that George Reeves was considerably bigger than Jack Larsen). I think we were meant to assume that, while conscious, Superman was always using his flying power on “low” to make himself seem lighter than he was in reality. ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/super-strong-but-not-invulnerable-a-question-for-comics-dopers/373938/32 "2006-09-26T12:52:25Z")
[QUOTE=Malacandra] Yes, but that’s what he _weighs_, not what he _masses_. Duh. 😃 OTOH, has anyone ever carried an unconscious Superman? Even if his flight passively cancelled the downwards force due to gravity, he would still have much more inertia than a battleship, so any non-superstrong character’s ability to get him moving would be negligible. [/QUOTE] When Superman died, there was no difficulty in moving the corpse. I’ve also seen Batman carry around a KO’d Superman. Young Clark Kent developed his strength and invulnerability before his strength, and didn’t fall through floors. Indeed, his strength is partially due to the fact that Krypton had a much higher gravity than Earth, and thus he’s incredibly light on earth. Superman masses as much as an ordinary man his size. It’s just that his physiology is different and energized by solar radiation. ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/super-strong-but-not-invulnerable-a-question-for-comics-dopers/373938/33 "2006-09-26T12:54:03Z")
[QUOTE=Menocchio] Young Clark Kent developed his strength and invulnerability before his **strength** , and didn’t fall through floors. [/QUOTE] Before his flight, I meant. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Il\_Palazzo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Lord\_Il\_Palazzo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Il_Palazzo)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/super-strong-but-not-invulnerable-a-question-for-comics-dopers/373938/34 "2006-09-26T13:00:37Z")
[QUOTE=Menocchio] When Superman died, there was no difficulty in moving the corpse. I’ve also seen Batman carry around a KO’d Superman. Young Clark Kent developed his strength and invulnerability before his strength, and didn’t fall through floors. Indeed, his strength is partially due to the fact that Krypton had a much higher gravity than Earth, and thus he’s incredibly light on earth. Superman masses as much as an ordinary man his size. It’s just that his physiology is different and energized by solar radiation. [/QUOTE] Agreed, aside from the correction you noted. Superman’s wouldn’t be super heavy because the lower gravity of Earth is (or at least was originally) used to eplain his powers (in part.) ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/super-strong-but-not-invulnerable-a-question-for-comics-dopers/373938/35 "2006-09-26T14:25:51Z")
[QUOTE=Menocchio] I’ve also seen Batman carry around a KO’d Superman. [/QUOTE] Yeah, but Batman is _prepared_ (the utility belt doubles as a truss). A friend of mine who wrote the DC Heroes Superman sourcebook says that the Superman blogs are still up in arms over Superman II, in which one Kryptonian picks up a manhole cover and hucks it at another Kryptonian, with the net effect of causing the target to go flying back and crashing through a wall. The fans are upset to this day that somebody was able to move a Kryptonian with a mere physical object, even if thrown by another Kryptonian, when they’re capable of withstanding other impacts of far greater magnitude. What amazes me is that they get this upset over a manhole cover, and they’re _perfectly fine_ with the idea that Kryptonians have telekinesis… :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/super-strong-but-not-invulnerable-a-question-for-comics-dopers/373938/36 "2006-09-26T14:32:53Z")
[QUOTE=Ethilrist] Yeah, but Batman is _prepared_ (the utility belt doubles as a truss). A friend of mine who wrote the DC Heroes Superman sourcebook says that the Superman blogs are still up in arms over Superman II, in which one Kryptonian picks up a manhole cover and hucks it at another Kryptonian, with the net effect of causing the target to go flying back and crashing through a wall. [/quote] [pedant] You misspelled “windshield.” > [@](#): > > What amazes me is that they get this upset over a manhole cover, and they’re _perfectly fine_ with the idea that Kryptonians have telekinesis… :dubious: Even when I first saw it around the age of 12, I always assumed Zod et al gained the telekinesis from their time in the Phantom Zone. There was precedent: in the comics, PZers automatically gained telepathically and could even, with effort, communicate to persons outside the zone with such abilities, though they never showed such abilities when set free. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2006, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/super-strong-but-not-invulnerable-a-question-for-comics-dopers/373938/37 "2006-09-26T16:29:07Z")
[QUOTE=Ethilrist] Yeah, but Batman is _prepared_ (the utility belt doubles as a truss). A friend of mine who wrote the DC Heroes Superman sourcebook says that the Superman blogs are still up in arms over Superman II, in which one Kryptonian picks up a manhole cover and hucks it at another Kryptonian, with the net effect of causing the target to go flying back and crashing through a wall. The fans are upset to this day that somebody was able to move a Kryptonian with a mere physical object, even if thrown by another Kryptonian, when they’re capable of withstanding other impacts of far greater magnitude. What amazes me is that they get this upset over a manhole cover, and they’re _perfectly fine_ with the idea that Kryptonians have telekinesis… :dubious: [/QUOTE] What amazes me, and I’ve been comic book reader for 30 years, is that people get upset by this sort of stuff and then wonder about the negative stereotypes of comic book readers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/super-strong-but-not-invulnerable-a-question-for-comics-dopers/373938.md?page=1)