# Superfast trains in the U.S. - why not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 3, 2007, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfast-trains-in-the-u-s-why-not/394385 "2007-03-03T01:56:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Drum\_God](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drum_god/32/44_2.png) [@Drum\_God](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drum_God)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfast-trains-in-the-u-s-why-not/394385/81 "2015-04-25T02:17:59Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Believe it or not, the plan is to have it a privately funded, for-profit enterprise. > > [http://texascentral.com/](http://texascentral.com/) Hence SB1601. She does represent me in the state Senate. I did not vote for her and I will not vote for her. For those who want to bring Texas into the future, I apologize on behalf of my senate district. The sad fact is that Lois is actually among the more sane of our state senators. Compared to most, she’s really not all that bad. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfast-trains-in-the-u-s-why-not/394385/82 "2015-04-25T02:18:10Z")
> [@Drum\_God](#): > > The eminent domain bill is sponsored by Lois Kolkhorst, my very own Republican state senator. The rationale for her bill doesn’t even make sense. Here is a paragraph from her statement of intent: > > However, what her bill is really about is blocking the construction of high speed rail in Texas. I believe **bump** is mistaken in the reason for this. The needs of local communities is not the issue. This is a sop to the oil and gas industries, which are very prevalent in Senate District 18. Rail will take cars of the highways. The oil industry cannot have that! I was going off the DMN articles from earlier in the week- they were talking to state House members from places along I-45 who were griping that this rail was going to somehow cut one side of their property off from the other; despite the TCR people saying they could put in archways and other stuff like that. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfast-trains-in-the-u-s-why-not/394385/83 "2015-04-25T02:23:15Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Why not? Interstate 5 more or less began in 1956 and was completed in 1979, connecting Mexico and Canada with 1,300 miles of road. 23 years from start to finish. Here in DC, we just opened a new portion of the subway system. It added 11.7 miles of track, and will be followed by another 11 miles to open in 2018. The project design started in 2000. 18 years of work, 23 miles of track. If the interstate system started today, I do think it would take much, much longer to complete than it did. I also bet that there would be many more holes in the system, like how I-70 never made it all the way to I-95. ---
**Author:** ![jezzaOZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a9a28c/32.png) [@jezzaOZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jezzaOZ)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfast-trains-in-the-u-s-why-not/394385/84 "2015-04-25T03:03:06Z")
Although it’s almost certainly not a factor in high speed train planning, it’s infinitely easier to sabotage a high-speed train than shoot an airliner down. You will of course have the obligatory security theatre at the train stations that is no different to airport security and in fact from various stories about bus and low speed trains, worse! However the real threat is simple industrial explosives on or near tracks. Derailing trains was a particularly effective hobby of the resistance in France WW-II. And that in the presence of large numbers of troops with a shoot-to-kill policy. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfast-trains-in-the-u-s-why-not/394385/85 "2015-04-25T03:18:37Z")
Fun viewing–your OSS teaches you how: [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-8gV4DJZUw) [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cipyPJJdnM) ---
**Author:** ![jezzaOZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a9a28c/32.png) [@jezzaOZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jezzaOZ)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfast-trains-in-the-u-s-why-not/394385/86 "2015-04-25T03:59:00Z")
[quote=“dropzone, post:85, topic:394385”] Fun viewing–your OSS teaches you how: [- YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-8gV4DJZUw) [/QUOTE] You realise everyone who clicks on your links is on an NSA watchlist?! Even worse they are on a Google Watchlist! ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfast-trains-in-the-u-s-why-not/394385/87 "2015-04-25T06:11:49Z")
Wouldn’t you get better socio-economic returns from improved public transport within existing commuter “regions”? ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfast-trains-in-the-u-s-why-not/394385/88 "2015-04-25T12:52:11Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I think the government with manly firmness and perhaps some liberal use of the National Guard to disperse the weepers and upper middle-class twits can deal with the worst impediments in this regard. Chinese-sounding user-name proposes Chinese-sounding solution to grave problem! There’s actually a lot that can be accomplished in a somewhat benevolent but often malevolent autocracy. I think, though, that we don’t have the population density to support a Chinese-style rail system. Don’t get me wrong; I love the Chinese rail system, but the USA isn’t China. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfast-trains-in-the-u-s-why-not/394385/89 "2015-04-25T16:14:57Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But, in the United States, we have areas with extremely high population density separated by rural areas that are sparsely populated. And much vaster and less-populated rural areas than Japan has. As for NIMBYism, the Interstate Highways cut through densely populated areas as well as suburbs and exurbs and the countryside – if we can tolerate those next door, we can tolerate anything. HSR is quiet and innocuous by comparison. Regarding the population density issue, there is no place at all in America that comes close to many other countries. I’m going to quote myself from another thread: > [@Internet providers need to be subject to competiton](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/internet-providers-need-to-be-subject-to-competiton/718397/23): > > Major cities in the US have far LOWER population densities than many major cities in other countries. > The following list gives people per square kilometer, for some reason: > > Seoul/Incheon > 16,700 > > Taipei > 15,200 > > Madrid > 5,200 > > London > 5,100 > > Tel Aviv > 5,050 > > By contrast, Los Angeles–the most densely-populated American city–ranks 90th in the world at 2,750. New York is 2,050. Dallas/Ft. Worth & Houston, with about 8 million residents between them, are 1,150. > > [http://www.citymayors.com/statistics/largest-cities-density-125.html](http://www.citymayors.com/statistics/largest-cities-density-125.html) > > Seoul is **6 times** more densely-populated than LA. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfast-trains-in-the-u-s-why-not/394385/90 "2015-04-25T17:29:46Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > Wouldn’t you get better socio-economic returns from improved public transport within existing commuter “regions”? America is a pretty big place. There are parts of the country where you could drop the entire island of Britain, as is, including Hebrides, on the land and not be close to touching a city of 50K people (not even counting Alaska). The transportation solutions that work in the UK are probably not suitable for most of America ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfast-trains-in-the-u-s-why-not/394385/91 "2015-04-26T15:48:21Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > Regarding the population density issue, there is no place at all in America that comes close to many other countries. I’m going to quote myself from another thread: And I’ll quote myself in that thread: > [@](#): > > That list is crap. Los Angeles is probably the LEAST densely populated of the U.S.'s major cities. The densest, as everyone should know, is New York, NY, with 10,194/km². Manhattan’s population density is 25,846/km². This incredible discrepancy is due to the ridiculous figures of 17,800,000 for New York’s population and 8,683 km² for its land area - the entire city of New York only has an area of 786 km². The figures in the list are for an entire metropolitan area – I can’t tell which, but U.S. Census areas on that scale include parts of New Jersey, with large expanses of less developed suburbs and countryside in between. Similarly, San Francisco, America’s second most densely populated city, has about 850,000 people in an area of 120 km² or 7,022/km². ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfast-trains-in-the-u-s-why-not/394385/92 "2015-04-26T17:30:43Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > America is a pretty big place. There are parts of the country where you could drop the entire island of Britain, as is, including Hebrides, on the land and not be close to touching a city of 50K people (not even counting Alaska). I’m looking at a map of the lower 48 with the UK superimposed on it, and I’m not sure this is correct. The UK isn’t _that_ small. 😛 Give it a go [here](http://www.ifitweremyhome.com/compare/US/GB). The map on the right lets you plonk the UK down anywhere. I take your wider point though. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfast-trains-in-the-u-s-why-not/394385/93 "2015-04-26T17:54:45Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > I’m looking at a map of the lower 48 with the UK superimposed on it, and I’m not sure this is correct. The UK isn’t _that_ small. 😛 > > Give it a go [here](http://www.ifitweremyhome.com/compare/US/GB). The map on the right lets you plonk the UK down anywhere. > > I take your wider point though. If you move the overlay north and west, so that it is centered near the Kansas-Colorado border and jutting into SD, you will be in a very sparsely populated area (I said “island of Britain”, meaning, not including NI). ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfast-trains-in-the-u-s-why-not/394385/94 "2015-04-27T16:55:09Z")
Nobody is talking about building a high-speed rail to connect North Dakota to South Dakota. Yes, the United States has vast tracts of empty space. We also have densely populated urban areas. Like, you know, the Washington to Boston corridor. ---
**Author:** ![1224rattusrattus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/ec9cab/32.png) [@1224rattusrattus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1224rattusrattus)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfast-trains-in-the-u-s-why-not/394385/95 "2015-04-27T18:49:27Z")
I’m glad this topic has come up because it’s the first thing I thought about when I saw the American Exceptionalism thread. What is one of the negative outcomes of the idea of American Exceptionalism? Not Invented Here Syndrome. And trains are an easy example of why Not Invented Here Syndrome can lead to shoddy service. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > If the costs are so bloody infinite, why do other countries keep building them? Are trains magically cheaper to run in Japan? As I understand it Federal safety legislation requires American trains to be much more heavy and crash resistant than virtually every other train in the world. This is partly due to the nature of US railways whereby passenger trains are more vulnerable to potentially dangerous freight traffic, but it is also to ensure greater safety for passengers in the event of non- freight accidents, for example a derail. So that’s great- hypothetically an accident in Europe (with it’s lightweight trains) that kills ten people would maybe only kill three people if it happened in the US with it’s very different style of rail transport. However because the American trains are so heavy they are also slow and have poor fuel efficiency, which also means ticket prices are comparatively more expensive for what is a worse service. This in turn means that poor profit margins for the train companies lead them to offer fewer services or even refuse to operate a service in many towns, in locations that would be lucrative markets were they in another country. The result of this is less people use trains and instead drive instead. Car driving is an exponentially more dangerous form of transport than trains or planes are, so the superficially top notch health & safety culture of the federal government would actually save more lives if they made the trains _less_ safe. A perfect anecdote would be the decline of plane travel after 9/11. People switched to their cars because they perceived driving to be safer than planes, despite the fact that you are statistically at least a thousand times more likely to die in a car accident than be killed by Al-Qaeda. There is a point where American Exceptionalism (assuming it even exists) can become an excuse for putting up with crap because “what works in the rest of the world can’t work here because it was Not Invented Here”. Another good example of this is American train operators reluctance to consider using a new improved type of carriage that cost no more than existing designs > **[When American transit agencies ignore the world’s move to open gangways](https://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2015/04/06/when-american-transit-agencies-ignore-the-worlds-move-to-open-gangways/)** > > » Virtually every new metro or subway train purchased by transit agencies over the past ten years has been built with open gangways—allowing passengers to walk from one end of the train to the othe… ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfast-trains-in-the-u-s-why-not/394385/96 "2015-04-27T20:04:11Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > … > There must be a way around this right? I think there is. I imagine a system where the transportation doesn’t have to be worried much about the landscape or the countries it is passing through. It could just pass right over them and would ideally be much faster. Travel limited to a single route per line would also not be that important. This system could move around freely and even go somewhere other than planned if the conditions dictated it. This is all Jetsons stuff of course so I won’t hold my breath. Yes, such a system exists. It’s called air travel :). Planes can land anywhere there is a runway and don’t need to worry about crossing jungles, dangerous mountain passes, or already built-up areas. Want to add a destination? Clear some area, build a landing strip, and start landing prop planes the next month. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfast-trains-in-the-u-s-why-not/394385/97 "2015-04-27T21:56:49Z")
Just connecting SF to LA would cost $68 billion for high speed rail. I think the hyperloop is closer to 6-16 billion. High speed rail would be about $178,000,000 per mile (hyperloop a fraction of that). Is that economical? I don’t know the economics of these things. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfast-trains-in-the-u-s-why-not/394385/98 "2015-04-27T22:24:06Z")
I started a thread about the [California High Speed Rail project](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=658783) about 3 years ago. Some good discussion about that project pros/cons and on HSR in general. The project is full of problems: oversold on benefits, undersold on costs, and the management team inept at managing expectations. I don’t think a lot of the problems have to do with Not Invented Here syndrome, because if you look at it objectively, it will raise a lot of questions regardless. I agree with **robert\_columbia** , in that the future has arrived - it’s down at your local metro airport. Bellyaching about the hassles of air travel will not magically make train travel a viable alternative in most cases. I have nothing against trains - I ride regularly from Sacramento to the Bay Area on one and it is just fine. I have problems with our local HSR project, specifically. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfast-trains-in-the-u-s-why-not/394385/99 "2015-04-27T22:56:52Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > High speed rail would be about $178,000,000 per mile That sounds outrageously expensive. Got a cite for that? ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfast-trains-in-the-u-s-why-not/394385/100 "2015-04-27T23:32:10Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Just connecting SF to LA would cost $68 billion for high speed rail. I think the hyperloop is closer to 6-16 billion. Well, not that this is the thread, but there are some serious questions about the actual cost of the Hyperloop. Elon Musk has a habit of letting his technological enthusiasm run away with him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfast-trains-in-the-u-s-why-not/394385.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfast-trains-in-the-u-s-why-not/394385.md?page=6)