# Superfluous use of commas **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 14, 2017, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-use-of-commas/791250 "2017-07-14T15:18:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-use-of-commas/791250/1 "2017-07-14T15:18:21Z")
Does this sentence require a comma? I think not and the document I’m reviewing is plagued with similar examples. > [@](#): > > When the design matures, the _xxxxx_ method will be employed as an extension of _ABC_ work and will use the _zzzzzz_ Toolkit. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-use-of-commas/791250/2 "2017-07-14T15:43:59Z")
Not required. Doesn’t help the sentence by itself. If the part ‘When the design matures’ is more related to some prior sentence than the rest of it then it may be helpful but I’d assume the sentences could be restructured in a better way. When I’m posting here I write somewhat as if I were speaking, so I’ll have commas in places not required, but it is to mimic the timing pattern of my speech. It’s allowable in dialogue and narration. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-use-of-commas/791250/3 "2017-07-14T15:48:43Z")
My thoughts as well. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-use-of-commas/791250/4 "2017-07-14T15:59:34Z")
Subordinate clause\*\*,\*\* independent clause. Since I am right, you are wrong. The sentence is grammatically correct and would be awkward without the comma (unless restructured so the subordinate clause comes **after** the independent clause). ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-use-of-commas/791250/5 "2017-07-14T16:19:23Z")
Require, no. Benefit from, I’m inclined to say “yes”. Without the comma, the reader may get the initial impression that the first clause of the sentence is “When the design matures the xxxxx method” – something akin to “When the design matures the xxxxx method, it will be time to utilize it to extirpate the vizzinottles”. The comma makes it more obvious that the first clause is “when the design matures”. But it isn’t _necessary_. It isn’t ungrammatical and it is easy enough to figure out the intended meaning, it isn’t left ambiguous for lack of comma. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-use-of-commas/791250/6 "2017-07-14T16:36:44Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Does this sentence require a comma? I think not and the document I’m reviewing is plagued with similar examples. I’m sorry, but you clearly don’t understand the use of commas. (Not surprising; a lot of people don’t.) The comma has two uses: (1) to introduce a slight pause (i.e., when reading aloud) and (2) to clarify the meaning. **AHunter3** is correct that the comma is not required but is desirable in this case. It certainly cannot be said that the comma is incorrect. The general rule is that an introductory clause is set off from the main part of the sentence by use of a comma. If I were editing the example in question, and it did not have a comma, I would very likely add one. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-use-of-commas/791250/7 "2017-07-14T16:41:32Z")
Can a design mature a method? Doesn’t seem necessary for clarity in the sentence by itself to me. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-use-of-commas/791250/8 "2017-07-14T17:03:39Z")
All I know is… just about… any comma usage is… much better… than putting a ton… of ellipsis… scattered… seemingly randomly… throughout the sentence… and ending with one instead of a period… ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-use-of-commas/791250/9 "2017-07-14T17:08:56Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > I’m sorry, but you clearly don’t understand the use of commas. (Not surprising; a lot of people don’t.) The comma has two uses: (1) to introduce a slight pause (i.e., when reading aloud) and (2) to clarify the meaning. > > **AHunter3** is correct that the comma is not required but is desirable in this case. It certainly cannot be said that the comma is incorrect. The general rule is that an introductory clause is set off from the main part of the sentence by use of a comma. If I were editing the example in question, and it did not have a comma, I would very likely add one. I have been trying to learn to write the past couple of years and it seems like they are so down on commas it forces me to restructure sentences so I can avoid them. I don’t consider myself overly liberal with commmas but according to some I would be. I find it much easier to read when they are strategicaly placed. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-use-of-commas/791250/10 "2017-07-14T17:09:37Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > I’m sorry, but you clearly don’t understand the use of commas. (Not surprising; a lot of people don’t.) The comma has two uses: (1) to introduce a slight pause (i.e., when reading aloud) and (2) to clarify the meaning. > > **AHunter3** is correct that the comma is not required but is desirable in this case. It certainly cannot be said that the comma is incorrect. The general rule is that an introductory clause is set off from the main part of the sentence by use of a comma. If I were editing the example in question, and it did not have a comma, I would very likely add one. I see what you mean. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-use-of-commas/791250/11 "2017-07-14T17:15:04Z")
Guys, the comma is grammatically required. When you insert an adverbial subordinate clause prior to an independent clause, you must use a comma to separate the two for clarity. \*Note the sentence above illustrates this exact example. Please see the section titled [Dependent Clause Before Independent Clause](http://theeditorsblog.net/2014/07/30/commas-with-subordinate-clauses-a-readers-question/). ---
**Author:** ![Anny\_Middon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc79bd/32.png) [@Anny\_Middon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anny_Middon)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-use-of-commas/791250/12 "2017-07-14T17:23:51Z")
I have a very vague recollection – probably incorrect – that subordinate clauses that begin a sentence require a comma if they are more than 4 words long. Anyone ever hear a rule about comma usage that is dependent on the number of words in the clause? I.e., did I totally dream this up, or is it based in some part on an actual guideline? ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-use-of-commas/791250/13 "2017-07-14T18:01:11Z")
Comma usage can be very important. For example: “Let’s eat, grandma!” vs. “Let’s eat grandma!” ---
**Author:** ![Patx2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/73ab20/32.png) [@Patx2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patx2)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-use-of-commas/791250/14 "2017-07-14T18:11:09Z")
I think the comma is necessary because the phrase prior to it cannot stand on its own it’s a dependent clause. The rest of the sentence is an independent clause and could stand on its own as a sentence. If the dependent clause comes first, I think the rule is it gets separated by a comma, not necessary if it comes after the independent clause. ---
**Author:** ![steatopygia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steatopygia/32/3132_2.png) [@steatopygia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steatopygia)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-use-of-commas/791250/15 "2017-07-14T18:57:35Z")
I struggle with comma usage but, I struggle even more with the “but and comma” part. Did I do it correctly above? ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-use-of-commas/791250/16 "2017-07-14T19:07:51Z")
Another vote for the comma being very useful in separating out the clause, if not entirely necessary. But I’m an Oxford Comma kinda guy. > [@Pantastic](#): > > All I know is… just about… any comma usage is… much better… than putting a ton… of ellipsis… scattered… seemingly randomly… throughout the sentence… and ending with one instead of a period… I totally read this in a Captain Kirk voice in my head 😃 ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-use-of-commas/791250/17 "2017-07-14T19:09:40Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > All I know is… just about… any comma usage is… much better… than putting a ton… of ellipsis… scattered… seemingly randomly… throughout the sentence… and ending with one instead of a period… [wolfish grin] ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-use-of-commas/791250/18 "2017-07-14T21:18:07Z")
> [@Anny\_Middon](#): > > I have a very vague recollection – probably incorrect – that subordinate clauses that begin a sentence require a comma if they are more than 4 words long. > > Anyone ever hear a rule about comma usage that is dependent on the number of words in the clause? I.e., did I totally dream this up, or is it based in some part on an actual guideline? I have that same vague recollection, now that you mention it. Also I remember being taught a _much_ longer list of when commas are required than the one **Flyer** posted. Nowadays I try to remember _why_ I put commas where I put them, but mostly I just go by habit and what “looks right”. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2017, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-use-of-commas/791250/19 "2017-07-15T00:27:39Z")
The comma is absolutely required. It’s a [garden path sentence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_path_sentence) without it. Every style guide I’ve read has demanded it. > [@steatopygia](#): > > I struggle with comma usage but, I struggle even more with the “but and comma” part. > > Did I do it correctly above? No. The comma goes before the conjunction. Put it where the period would normally go. “I struggle with comma usage, but I struggle even more…” ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2017, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-use-of-commas/791250/20 "2017-07-15T01:41:06Z")
I like commas, but you knew that. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-use-of-commas/791250.md?page=2)