# Superfluous "W" in write and wrong etc **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 11, 2019, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-w-in-write-and-wrong-etc/827567 "2019-01-11T02:54:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2019, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-w-in-write-and-wrong-etc/827567/1 "2019-01-11T02:54:03Z")
Why is there are a silent or redundant “W” in words such as wrap, wring, wrong, write, wrist, wreck, wrath, wraith etc? ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2019, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-w-in-write-and-wrong-etc/827567/2 "2019-01-11T02:59:07Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Why is there are a silent or redundant “W” in words such as wrap, wring, wrong, write, wrist, wreck, wrath, wraith etc? Because once upon a time they were not silent. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2019, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-w-in-write-and-wrong-etc/827567/3 "2019-01-11T02:59:40Z")
Because those words used to be pronounced with a “vr” or “wr” sound. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2019, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-w-in-write-and-wrong-etc/827567/4 "2019-01-11T03:08:44Z")
Because Samuel Johnson didn’t drop them when he created the Dictionary of the English Language in 1755 which locked down English spelling for the rest of history. Even despite some sounds had been dropped by speakers for almost a century at that point. The ⟨wr-⟩, ⟨kn-⟩ and ⟨wh-⟩ consonant cluster reductions specifically result in lots of vestigial letters. The ⟨wr-⟩ cluster became ⟨r-⟩ somewhere around the 17th century. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2019, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-w-in-write-and-wrong-etc/827567/5 "2019-01-11T03:09:26Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Because once upon a time they were not silent. Ok, now tell us why there’s a D in DPRK. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2019, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-w-in-write-and-wrong-etc/827567/6 "2019-01-11T03:10:18Z")
[From etymonline:](https://www.etymonline.com/word/wr-) > [@](#): > > wr- > common Germanic consonantal combination, especially to start words implying twisting or distortion. Retained in Dutch and Flemish; reduced to -r- in Old High German and Old Norse; represented by vr- in Danish and Swedish; still spelled -wr- in English, but the -w- ceased to be pronounced c. 1450-1700 except in dialects. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2019, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-w-in-write-and-wrong-etc/827567/7 "2019-01-11T03:11:09Z")
> [@naita](#): > > Because those words used to be pronounced with a “vr” or “wr” sound. Interesting. > **[wr- | Etymology of prefix wr- by etymonline](https://www.etymonline.com/word/wr-)** > > Origin of prefix wr-: common Germanic consonantal combination, especially to start words implying twisting or distortion. Retained in Du ... See more. That was true in Proto-Germanic, but if you go yet further back in time (Porto-Indo-European), several of them were again pronounced just “r-“. “Write,” for example, is cousin to “rodent” — scratching. ETA: Partly ninja’d by pulykamell (not the first time!). ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2019, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-w-in-write-and-wrong-etc/827567/8 "2019-01-11T03:20:58Z")
Remember that the spelling, even in Shakespeare has been “fixed” by later writers. Here is a random selection from the taming of the shrew with the original spelling from several of the original folios as an example. What you read in school doesn’t just lose the long S, the spelling is changed and in some cases the jokes are lost due to both the vowel shift and consonant cluster reductions. While we don’t know for sure knight and wrap would have been fully pronounced at this time. > [@](#): > > Pet. Women are made to beare, and ſo are you. > Kate. No ſuch jade as you, if me you meane. > Pet. Alas good Kate, I will not burthen thee, For knowing thee to be but yong and light. > Kate. Too light for ſuch a ſwaine as you to catch, And yet as heauie as my waight ſhould be. > Pet. Shold be, ſhould : buzze. > Kate. Well tane, and like a buzzard. > Pet. Oh ſlow-wing’d Turtle, ſhal a buzard take thee? > Kate. I for a Turtle, as he takes a buzard. > Pet. Come, come you Waſpe, y’faith you are too angrie. > Kate. If I waſpiſh, beſt beware my ſting. > Pet. My remedy is then to plucke it out. > Kate. I, if the foole could finde it where it lies. > Pet. Who knowes not where a Waſpe does weare his ſting? In his taile. > Kate. In his tongue? > Pet. Whoſe tongue? > Kate. Yours if you talke of tales, and ſo farewell. > Pet. What with my tongue in your taile ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2019, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-w-in-write-and-wrong-etc/827567/9 "2019-01-11T03:23:34Z")
Argh. “Write” (Germanic) and “rodent” (Italic) both meant “scratching,” but it seems they probably come from different PIE roots. (John McWhorter led me astray on this one - or maybe he’s read something persuasive I haven’t). ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2019, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-w-in-write-and-wrong-etc/827567/10 "2019-01-11T04:11:56Z")
So I could once have vritten about how I vrecked my vrist while vrestling? I can hear the difference between “Vr” and “R”, but what about “Wr” and “R”? Would I have weritten about how I werecked my werist while werestling? ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2019, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-w-in-write-and-wrong-etc/827567/11 "2019-01-11T05:24:02Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > So I could once have vritten about how I vrecked my vrist while vrestling? I can hear the difference between “Vr” and “R”, but what about “Wr” and “R”? Would I have weritten about how I werecked my werist while werestling? No, you would have written about how you wrecked your wrist while wrestling, like you do now. The difference is that in speech you would also have voiced the ‘w’. Or, to be more accurate, you would probably have voiced a sound which is somewhere the values given to ‘v’ and ‘w’ in most modern variants of English. This sound survived in some variants of English until quite recently; when Dickens has his Cockney-speaking characters say things like “werry well” and “werry sorry” this is the sound he is alluding to, and he evidently expects his readers to consider it distinctively Cockney. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2019, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-w-in-write-and-wrong-etc/827567/12 "2019-01-11T05:59:25Z")
All I know is two wrights don’t make a wrong, they make an airplane. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2019, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-w-in-write-and-wrong-etc/827567/13 "2019-01-11T07:06:45Z")
Afrikaans, like Dutch, has retained the pronounciation. And Afrikaans _w_ sounds like English _v_. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2019, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-w-in-write-and-wrong-etc/827567/14 "2019-01-11T09:30:26Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Because Samuel Johnson didn’t drop them when he created the Dictionary of the English Language in 1755 which locked down English spelling for the rest of history. Noah Webster would like to have a word with you. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2019, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-w-in-write-and-wrong-etc/827567/15 "2019-01-11T09:46:17Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Why is there are a silent or redundant “W” in words such as wrap, wring, wrong, write, wrist, wreck, wrath, wraith etc? The _w_ modifies the pronunciation. I pronounce _wrap_ differently from _rap_, for instance. I’m not sure how to explain it but the _r_ in the latter is harder and the position of my lower jaw is different. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2019, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-w-in-write-and-wrong-etc/827567/16 "2019-01-11T09:46:28Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > Noah Webster would like to have a word with you. Surely that’s “wourd”? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2019, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-w-in-write-and-wrong-etc/827567/17 "2019-01-11T10:01:26Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > The _w_ modifies the pronunciation. I pronounce _wrap_ differently from _rap_, for instance. I’m not sure how to explain it but the _r_ in the latter is harder and the position of my lower jaw is different. That’s the “except in dialects” in **pulykamell** ’s post. Thing is, “except in dialects” can include a lot of speakers! I recall encountering that differentiation in multiple Jamaican and British speakers (not all Jamaicans, same as not all Brits: dialects don’t follow color blobs in a map). ---
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2019, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-w-in-write-and-wrong-etc/827567/18 "2019-01-11T14:08:11Z")
Do you pronounce the w in wry? When I say the word, it is largely similar to rye, but my lips move differently. Not being a native speaker, I’d like to know how all y’all do it. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2019, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-w-in-write-and-wrong-etc/827567/19 "2019-01-11T14:21:03Z")
I don’t know how “write” was pronounced, but I can see how it could have been pronounced differently from “vrite”. The latter would be a voiced labio-dental fricative. Lower lip against upper teeth and air forced between the teeth and lip. Instead put the two lips nearly together and force air between them and you get a different sound, somewhere between v and w. I believe that that is how the German w is actually pronounced. ---
**Author:** ![yearofglad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b782af/32.png) [@yearofglad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yearofglad)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2019, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-w-in-write-and-wrong-etc/827567/20 "2019-01-11T15:50:28Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > The _w_ modifies the pronunciation. I pronounce _wrap_ differently from _rap_, for instance. I’m not sure how to explain it but the _r_ in the latter is harder and the position of my lower jaw is different. I’m surprised it took this many posts in this thread for someone to say this - I also pronounce “wr” words differently than their alleged homophones. The “w” tends to soften the initial sound, as Quartz said - my lips make a rounded shape when beginning these words. It’s almost the same shape as I’d make if whistling. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superfluous-w-in-write-and-wrong-etc/827567.md?page=2)