# Superhero and Villain Beginnings **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 10, 2002, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superhero-and-villain-beginnings/108269 "2002-05-10T12:55:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ShadowWarrior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7993a0/32.png) [@ShadowWarrior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowWarrior)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2002, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superhero-and-villain-beginnings/108269/1 "2002-05-10T12:55:52Z")
Have you ever noticed how whenever a Superhero is created, a bunch of super-villains appear soon after, and quite often, the hero actively creates the villain… for example: Batman accidently drops Napier in an acid bath, creating the Joker (I shall ignore the horribly mangled version in the film where napier killed wayne’s parents, thus creating him…) The only exception to the “Hero first, villain second” rule I can think of is the X-Men, where both heroes and villains turn up more or less simultaneously. anyway, my question is: Has there ever been a case where the villain came first? In particular, has a villain ever accidentally created a hero? ---
**Author:** ![Legomancer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/779978/32.png) [@Legomancer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Legomancer)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2002, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superhero-and-villain-beginnings/108269/2 "2002-05-10T13:20:57Z")
Mojo Jojo bumped Professor Utonium’s arm, causing the Chemical X to go into the mixture, thus creating the Powerpuff Girls. I believe Galactus created the Silver Surfer, but my knowledge there is very very weak. Mister Miracle (Scott Free) was trained in the torture schools of Apokalips, if that counts. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2002, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superhero-and-villain-beginnings/108269/3 "2002-05-10T13:34:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ShadowWarrior \* > \*\*anyway, my question is: Has there ever been a case where the villain came first? In particular, has a villain ever accidentally created a hero? \*\* Sure! Bunches of WWII heroes were created through Nazi actions: The Human Bomb drank his bomb formula rather than let it fall into Nazi hands, for example. The best example of this (and the single dumbest origin (including the Whizzer’s) ever) is the Golden Age Black Terror’s. He was a pharmacist and, when Nazis started menacing him (I don’t remember why) he mixed together _everything_ in his pharmacy (laxitives, muscle relaxants, stimulants, purgatives…_everything_!) to turn himself into a super-hero. It worked, of course, but I suspect he was seeing lizards on the walls for a while. There’s also cases where the villain actually caused the event that created the hero: Ms Marvel (IIRC: it’s been decades) was experimented on by the Kree and ended up super. That sort of origin (Villain’s dark plans of torture go awry) was somewhat common in the mid '70s-80s. Firestorm fits here (anti-nuclear power terrorists blow up a reactor after tying up the two guys who’ll become Firestorm inside) I’m gonna think of tons more examples as soon as I post this… Fenris ---
**Author:** ![ShadowWarrior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7993a0/32.png) [@ShadowWarrior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowWarrior)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2002, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superhero-and-villain-beginnings/108269/4 "2002-05-10T13:41:47Z")
I think you’re right about Galactus & SS… Powerpuff girls I thought were just an accident? IIRC, the title credits don’t mention MojoJojo at all… I know nothing about mr miracle… ---
**Author:** ![Legomancer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/779978/32.png) [@Legomancer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Legomancer)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2002, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superhero-and-villain-beginnings/108269/5 "2002-05-10T13:48:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ShadowWarrior \* > **Powerpuff girls I thought were just an accident? IIRC, the title credits don’t mention MojoJojo at all…** There was an episode revealing the secret origin of Mojo Jojo. He was just Jojo, a helper monkey for Professor Utonium. But he was a BAD monkey and always messed up the experiments! And he was responsible for the Chemical X getting into the mixture. At the end of the episode, Mojo was catatonic, just muttering “It was me!” over and over at the realization that he had created his own nemeses. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowWarrior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7993a0/32.png) [@ShadowWarrior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowWarrior)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2002, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superhero-and-villain-beginnings/108269/6 "2002-05-10T13:53:47Z")
well, I guess that qualifies then! I thought of another - Lex Luthor was around… and was a villain… before Superman ever turned up… Alhtough he isn’t a Super-Villain, so I don’t know if that counts ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2002, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superhero-and-villain-beginnings/108269/7 "2002-05-10T14:05:55Z")
Well, the small-time criminal Eel O’Brien was around for some time before Plastic Man (who gained his powers when some criminals dropped him into a vat of acid). In one episode, Plastic Man was instrumental in sending Eel to jail (though Woozy Winks got the reward), but Eel mysteriously escaped from his cell. His whereabouts are still unknown. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2002, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superhero-and-villain-beginnings/108269/8 "2002-05-10T14:32:08Z")
Doyle Brande’s (post-boot, it’s Roderick Doyle) assassination attempt on his business partner (and pre-boot, also cousin) R.J.Brande accidentally created the Legion of Super-Heroes. ---
**Author:** ![gonzoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a6a055/32.png) [@gonzoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzoron)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2002, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superhero-and-villain-beginnings/108269/9 "2002-05-10T14:37:07Z")
This can’t possibly count, but Gargamel created Smurfette. And this is hopelessly obscure, but Emplate trapped his sister Monet St. Croix in the body of Penance, causing his other two twin sisters to merge into M to take her place, thus “creating” two heroines at once. Oh, and Mr. Gone witnessed the creation of The Maxx, although he wasn’t responsible for it. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2002, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superhero-and-villain-beginnings/108269/10 "2002-05-10T14:50:40Z")
Yes, Galactus created the Silver Surfer to be his first herald. OTOH, I don’t think Galactus can truly be said to be a villian. In the Secret Wars mini-series, Reed Richards noted that Galactus didn’t truly belong with the “villians” in the series and wasn’t truly evil. He described Galactus as a “force of nature.” Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![king\_of\_spain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7cd45c/32.png) [@king\_of\_spain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/king_of_spain)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2002, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superhero-and-villain-beginnings/108269/11 "2002-05-10T15:29:14Z")
In at least some incarnations, Superman drove Lex Luthor to evil by making his hair fall out or some such nonsense. So that one wouldn’t necessarily count. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2002, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superhero-and-villain-beginnings/108269/12 "2002-05-10T15:34:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ShadowWarrior \* > \*\* Lex Luthor was around… and was a villain… before Superman ever turned up… Alhtough he isn’t a Super-Villain, so I don’t know if that counts \*\* Slight quibble – it depends on which canon you accept: Golden age, Luthor was just another run of the mill evil genius Superman battled; Silver age, Luthor and Clark Kent grew up in Smallville together, and young Luthor blamed Superboy for causing him to lose his hair; current “Smallville” TV show, Luthor and Clark are still growing up together, but Luthor is twisted all on his own. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Elvis\_Rojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@El\_Elvis\_Rojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Elvis_Rojo)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2002, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superhero-and-villain-beginnings/108269/13 "2002-05-10T15:40:58Z")
In **Cyber Force** , pretty much the entire team was created as part of an evil organization before defecting. Same with **Gen13** , all the kids were put into this program by an evil corporation and through the testing and whatnot, the company made them develope their powers and become super heros. I don’t know if **Pitt** counts, because his “creation” was simply being born of a super villain. Same with Orion. Ultron created Vision to kill the Avengers, but that didn’t work. I can’t really think of anymore right now, but there’s a few. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Elvis\_Rojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@El\_Elvis\_Rojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Elvis_Rojo)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2002, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superhero-and-villain-beginnings/108269/14 "2002-05-10T15:43:09Z")
Oh, and DUH! You could say the thug who shot Uncle Ben created **Spider-Man** (can’t believe noone came up with that one yet). ---
**Author:** ![MachV](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@MachV](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MachV)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2002, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superhero-and-villain-beginnings/108269/15 "2002-05-10T15:53:23Z")
Ok, dammit. I posted earlier & then had a timeout. Rashum-frashum stinkin’ servers… So I’ll keep this short as I ain’t typing all that again. DC’s General Wade Eiling. Had a hand in both the frameup & the govt. experiment that ultimately created Captain Atom. Nathaniel Adam disappeared for 20 years (ok, let’s forget about the Monarch thing for just a moment) and reappeared to find his family had been taken in by Eiling. The kind general had raised his children to believe that their father had died a traitor to his country. Although probably not officially a “supervillain” until after he had transplanted his brain into the Shaggy Man’s body :rolleyes: , he was definitely Cap’s primary antagonist. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2002, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superhero-and-villain-beginnings/108269/16 "2002-05-10T16:12:59Z")
Oh, come on, the most obvious one – **_Joe Chill_ created Batman when he killed Thomas and Martha Wayne** That stuff about the Joker’s involvement was movie nonsense. Remember, in the traditional Batman canon, we don’t even really know the Joker’s real name. He was one of many small-time crooks who took on the identity of the Red Hood when he ran into Batman in was dumped in the vat of chemicals at the playing card factory. (See “The Killing Joke” for one of the better versions of the Joker’s origin.) ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2002, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superhero-and-villain-beginnings/108269/17 "2002-05-10T16:13:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by El Elvis Rojo \* > \*\*Oh, and DUH! You could say the thug who shot Uncle Ben created **Spider-Man** (can’t believe noone came up with that one yet). \*\* Mmmm…may have to give you half-credit on that one. He didn’t give Peter Parker spider-powers, just the impetus to use them for other than personal gain. Judges? ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2002, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superhero-and-villain-beginnings/108269/18 "2002-05-10T16:38:10Z")
Drug dealers (yeah, I know they’re not _super_-villians) created Cloak and Dagger. Likewise criminals, IIRC, created the Punisher. The Snarks caused the creation of Power Pack. Jocasta (an honorary Avenger) was created by Ultron. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Saltire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saltire/32/553_2.png) [@Saltire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saltire)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2002, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superhero-and-villain-beginnings/108269/19 "2002-05-10T17:05:21Z")
Wasn’t there a spy responsible for the early detonation of the gamma bomb that created The Hulk? If it hadn’t gone off early, Bruce Banner would have made it to the bunker in time. Magik was trained by the demon Belasco, though she had her mutant abilities before he took her to Limbo. ---
**Author:** ![Doubting\_Robert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e495f1/32.png) [@Doubting\_Robert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doubting_Robert)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2002, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superhero-and-villain-beginnings/108269/20 "2002-05-10T17:07:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RealityChuck \* > \*\*Well, the small-time criminal Eel O’Brien was around for some time before Plastic Man (who gained his powers when some criminals dropped him into a vat of acid). In one episode, Plastic Man was instrumental in sending Eel to jail (though Woozy Winks got the reward), but Eel mysteriously escaped from his cell. His whereabouts are still unknown. 😉 \*\* Excuse me? Okay, I’ve never read the original Plastic Man stories, so all I have to go by is the version DC Comics is using now that they have the rights to the character. In their version, Eel O’Brian _is_ Plastic Man (or vice-versa). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superhero-and-villain-beginnings/108269.md?page=2)