# Superheroes who just couln't be replaced **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 23, 2004, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superheroes-who-just-coulnt-be-replaced/261042 "2004-08-23T03:12:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2004, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superheroes-who-just-coulnt-be-replaced/261042/21 "2004-08-23T19:55:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Oh, and speaking of Captain America, there have been numerous attempts to re-create the Super Soldier formula. One of which was partially responsible for Man-Thing. Was this also the same project which resulted in the (attempted) Green Goblin supersoldier serum? Or was that origin of the Goblin only in the movies? And it’s my understanding, btw, that the original material of Cap’s shield (which I shall call “scutium”, unless there’s some other accepted name for it) contained no adamantium, and that adamantium was, in fact, one of the materials first discovered in the project to attempt to re-create scutium. Also, with non-Peter Parker Spider-men, what about the Indian Spider-man launched a few months ago? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2004, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superheroes-who-just-coulnt-be-replaced/261042/22 "2004-08-23T20:03:39Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Was this also the same project which resulted in the (attempted) Green Goblin supersoldier serum? Or was that origin of the Goblin only in the movies? I cannot speak for the regular Marvel universe, but a theme emerging from the Ultimate universe is that most of the super-folk are a direct cause of trying to reproduce the super-soldier serum (Spidey, Green Goblin, Sandman, Lizard, etc.). I like the concept - it really ties everything together. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2004, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superheroes-who-just-coulnt-be-replaced/261042/23 "2004-08-23T20:32:04Z")
Since you mentioned the Ultimates, I have a few questions: What about the Ultimate X-Men? Are they still mutants or are they experiments gone wrong as well? I know Nightcrawler’s a Weapon X creation in that universe and I assume Wolverine still is as well, but what about the rest? On a more egocentric note: Is Thor a god? What about the rest of the Aesir: Loki, Odin, etc? I’ve not read comics in years but I did read a TPB of the Ult X-Men at Border’s a month or so ago and loved it. When I get the money, I’m going to have to hunt them all down. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2004, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superheroes-who-just-coulnt-be-replaced/261042/24 "2004-08-23T20:53:22Z")
> [@](#): > > What about the Ultimate X-Men? Are they still mutants or are they experiments gone wrong as well? Stinky, filthy muties. And the mutant infestation is a bit more pronounced in the other books, and mentioned quite often. Seeing an explosion on the TV, the first thing that Gwen Stacy says to Mary Jane Watson is, “Is it mutants?” The Ultimates also are not too fond of them either (The Wasp has kept her mutantness hidden for most of her life). > [@](#): > > I know Nightcrawler’s a Weapon X creation in that universe and I assume Wolverine still is as well, but what about the rest? Well, Wolvie’s still a mutant, just Weapon X modified. That’s the same for all the Weapon X folk. > [@](#): > > Is Thor a god? We’re not sure (or, at least, everyone else isn’t sure). Nothing’s been shown specifically - everyone thinks that Thor is just a nutjob who has a really big hammer (and gets the job done). > [@](#): > > What about the rest of the Aesir: Loki, Odin, etc? Couldn’t tell you. There have only been 13 issues of The Ultimates, plus additional appearances in Ultimate War and Ultimate Six. Certainly not far enough down the line of continuity to cover those. Give eBay a look. Great deals on TPBs to be had there. Also, I got your package this weekend - it arrived last week, but I was on vacation. Mucho, _mucho_ gracias. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2004, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superheroes-who-just-coulnt-be-replaced/261042/25 "2004-08-23T21:30:05Z")
OK. look children, I’m not talking about “replaced” in the sense that some shlub with roughly the same set of powers/abilities donning the cape and tights and doing the same job. Sure, Captain Marvel could do Superman’s job, but, because he isn’t Clark Kent, he just, wouldn’t… be… Superman. Theoretically, though, as Billy Batson ages (is he doing that? I’m not up on Captain Marvel), or if something happened to him when he wasn’t all Shazamie, the Gods or whoever could select some other kid, teach him the word, and he could step into the role. Theoretically, Dick Grayson could put on an aging/deceased Bruce Wayne’s cape and cowl and open up the whupass on Gotham’s criminals, but really, Dick Grayson was Robin and is Nightwing. Sure, he could do the job that Batman does, but he just… wouldn’t… be… Batman, because Bruce Wayne has a unique set of personality traits that make him Batman. It’s not just the Spandex outfit, the detective skills and more martial arts training than any normal vigilante really needs. Same thing for Peter Parker. Nobody else, no matter how radioactive-spider-power endowed could really be Spiderman. Peter Parker is Spider-man, Peter Parker always will be Spider-man, and anyone else would just be some webslinging wall-crawling guy in tights. And now that I think about it, was Connor ever _really_ the Green Arrow, or was he just filling his dad’s tights and holding the hat up while we were waiting for Ollie to come back from the dead? (I love that hat. I think the Green Arrow’s hat should have its own title.) ---
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2004, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superheroes-who-just-coulnt-be-replaced/261042/26 "2004-08-23T21:49:34Z")
> [@Mockingbird](#): > > There have been _three_ Batgirls. > > Betty Kane, nice of Kathy Kane(Batwoman) was the first Bat-girl who appeared until 1963. > > Barbara Gordon is actually Batgirl II. > > Cassandra Cain is Batgirl **III**. Then what is the difference between Bat-girl and Batwoman, and how many Batwomen have there been? ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2004, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superheroes-who-just-coulnt-be-replaced/261042/27 "2004-08-23T22:31:48Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > I would argue that Batman is replaceable. Source material is _Superman: Red Son_. In it, Superman lands in Soviet Russia, not Kansas. As a result, the Soviet Empire becomes a benevolent system of government the world over (save the US), with Supes as the caretaker of humanity. However, there’s a constant uprising inside the Soviet Union (Bruce Waynovich?), led by a masked crusader who looks remarkably like Batman. Supes lobotomizes him, but he keeps coming back in various reincarnations of anti-fascists. At one point, you see about a dozen lobotomized Batmen walking around Supes’ fortress sweeping the floor. > > So Batman is more a product of society than anything. Yes, Batman could definitely be replaced. Another issue of Elseworld called _Superman: Speeding Bullets_ had the baby Kal-El’s rocket land in a field outside Metropolis rather than Smallville. The rocket is discovered by Thomas and Martha Wayne who call the baby Bruce and raise him as their own son. Life is good until one fateful night when Bruce is about ten years old, as the family leaves a movie theater, they are accosted by a deranged mugger who shoots them all. Bruce, being a strange visitor from another planet, survives and his powers suddenly manifest. He uses his heat vision to blast the mugger to kingdom come. The experience leaves him emotionally scarred, and so he eventually becomes the Batman! ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2004, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superheroes-who-just-coulnt-be-replaced/261042/28 "2004-08-23T22:39:59Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Also, I got your package this weekend - it arrived last week, but I was on vacation. Mucho, _mucho_ gracias. De nada. I’m glad I could help. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2004, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superheroes-who-just-coulnt-be-replaced/261042/29 "2004-08-23T22:49:11Z")
> [@The Asbestos Mango](#): > > Theoretically, Dick Grayson could put on an aging/deceased Bruce Wayne’s cape and cowl and open up the whupass on Gotham’s criminals, but really, Dick Grayson was Robin and is Nightwing. Sure, he could do the job that Batman does, but he just… wouldn’t… be… Batman, because Bruce Wayne has a unique set of personality traits that make him Batman. It’s not just the Spandex outfit, the detective skills and more martial arts training than any normal vigilante really needs. Actually, if Dick took over as Batman, about the only difference would be the civilian name (well…and the money, presuming he didn’t get a stipend to go with the suit). The boy is becoming more like the old man all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2004, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superheroes-who-just-coulnt-be-replaced/261042/30 "2004-08-23T23:02:26Z")
> [@Terminus Est](#): > > Another issue of Elseworld called _Superman: Speeding Bullets_ had the baby Kal-El’s rocket land in a field outside Metropolis rather than Smallville. :smack: Gotham City, not Metropolis! ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2004, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superheroes-who-just-coulnt-be-replaced/261042/31 "2004-08-23T23:36:02Z")
[grumpy old codger] Dammit, what’s up with all this replacement crap? When I was a kid, superheroes didn’t get replaced! They were who they were. [/grumpy old codger] ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superheroes-who-just-coulnt-be-replaced/261042/32 "2004-08-24T01:38:28Z")
> [@Muad'Dib](#): > > Then what is the difference between Bat-girl and Batwoman, and how many Batwomen have there been? Well, there was always _The Wild Wild World of Batwoman_ … ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superheroes-who-just-coulnt-be-replaced/261042/33 "2004-08-24T02:04:53Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > And to hijack the hijack, am I remembering correctly that there was a story in which Barry-Flash was somehow unconsciously responsible for the lightning bolt that turned Wally West into Kid Flash? Maybe not the same thing, but I remember a bit that was either in _Crisis on Infinite Earths_, or maybe it was one of the _Flash Annuals_, where he ran so fast that he turned into pure energy, passed the speed of light, and started to go back in time. He ended up turning into the lightning bolt that turned himself into the Flash in the first place. Is that what you’re talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superheroes-who-just-coulnt-be-replaced/261042/34 "2004-08-24T02:17:23Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Also, with non-Peter Parker Spider-men, what about the Indian Spider-man launched a few months ago? That was just him getting outsourced… ---
**Author:** ![ussentinel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ce7236/32.png) [@ussentinel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ussentinel)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superheroes-who-just-coulnt-be-replaced/261042/35 "2004-08-24T03:13:12Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > And to hijack the hijack, am I remembering correctly that there was a story in which Barry-Flash was somehow unconsciously responsible for the lightning bolt that turned Wally West into Kid Flash? You may be remembering the pre-Crisis cover/story to FLASH #135 (v.1) “Secret of the Three Super Weapons” (which was reprinted in DC 100-Page Spectacular #22) which depicted the lightning bolt on Flash’s costume strike Kid Flash which turned Kid Flash’s costume into the familiar upper-yellow/bottom red version; not sure. (Prior to that, Wally just wore a smaller version of Flash’s costume.) I only vaguely recall that Wally had a similiar accident (with Flash present) that gave Wally his powers. I think Sol is recalling the Barry/Flash origin story (and a great story it was) from Secret Origins Annual #2 (1988). ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superheroes-who-just-coulnt-be-replaced/261042/36 "2004-08-24T04:25:18Z")
I think I was conflating the two stories, the Wally’s new costume story and the Secret Origins story. I know I’ve read them both. ---
**Author:** ![Hunter\_Hawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/50afbb/32.png) [@Hunter\_Hawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hunter_Hawk)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superheroes-who-just-coulnt-be-replaced/261042/37 "2004-08-24T04:30:24Z")
[hija…uh, no, I guess it’s actually back to the original topic] I think Plastic Man is another one of those unique superheroes. I can’t see anyone truly replacing Eel O’Brian. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superheroes-who-just-coulnt-be-replaced/261042/38 "2004-08-24T06:27:56Z")
> [@Chairman Pow](#): > > IIRC, the Red Skull got the original, German version of the super-soldier serum. Cite, please? I remember a _Captain America_ backup story where the Red Skull got his mind transferred into a body that was _cloned_ from Cap’s body, but no reference to any “original” Super-Soldier serum IIRC. Skully also ended up getting a faceful of his own red-skull gas, which gave him a deformed head on top of his otherwise flawless aryan body. And if we’re counting Super-Soldier Serum spinoffs, don’t forget Nuke from **Daredevil.** ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superheroes-who-just-coulnt-be-replaced/261042/39 "2004-08-24T11:41:05Z")
> [@Hunter Hawk](#): > > [hija…uh, no, I guess it’s actually back to the original topic] > > I think Plastic Man is another one of those unique superheroes. I can’t see anyone truly replacing Eel O’Brian. What about that Dibney guy? Doesn’t he have essentially the same power? ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superheroes-who-just-coulnt-be-replaced/261042/40 "2004-08-24T11:59:31Z")
Plastic Man can morph his body into any conceivable shape in addition to stretching. The most other stretchy heroes can do is stretch and maybe some facial and bodily distortions. The only two established characters I can think of offhand with Plas’ versatility are The Martian Manhunter and The Impossible Man. Both are aliens; only MM has the ability to do color, too. … and whoever Plastic Man’s son is. The one Batman ‘scared straight’ in that JLA issue I picked up a few years back. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superheroes-who-just-coulnt-be-replaced/261042.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superheroes-who-just-coulnt-be-replaced/261042.md?page=3)