# Superman "S" Question **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 8, 2003, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-s-question/206373 "2003-10-08T22:56:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2003, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-s-question/206373/41 "2003-10-09T21:29:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Revtim \* > \*\*It’s funny to look at the first Superman story (Action Comics #1 from 1938) and see the differences. Can’t fly, only leap 1/8th of a mile; “and that nothing less than a bursting shell could penetrate his skin!” \*\* I know that this is not very rational, but doesn’t wearing a cape and _not_ being able to fly just seem especially silly? Unless you are Batman, yu must be able to fly if you are going to wear a cape. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2003, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-s-question/206373/42 "2003-10-10T01:20:57Z")
So here’s my question: Why does the Silver Age Jor-El–a Kryptonian who lives under a red sun–have a YELLOW sun as his tunic’s emblem? ---
**Author:** ![photopat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e95f7d/32.png) [@photopat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/photopat)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2003, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-s-question/206373/43 "2003-10-10T01:29:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Krokodil \* > \*\*So here’s my question: Why does the Silver Age Jor-El–a Kryptonian who lives under a red sun–have a YELLOW sun as his tunic’s emblem? \*\* Hmmm. That’s not a bad question. My guess? A bad art decision. Or…he knew from his studies that a yellow sun would give a Kryptonian super powers and became so obsessed that he became a yellow sun worshipper, and even wore a symbol of one on his clothes. Then, when he discovered the planet was going to blow up, he really thought he had a chance to get to a yellow sun system and get those powers he’d always wanted so he could get back at the burly guys (with names like Dik-Em and Lanc-Er) who’d kicked sand in his face at the beach in front of Lara, by kicking asteroids into theirs. Unfortunately, of course, he never got the big rocket built, which, had anybody given it much thought, would have demonstrated his frustrated male ego and lack of self confidence. ---
**Author:** ![Roadfood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9fc348/32.png) [@Roadfood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roadfood)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2003, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-s-question/206373/44 "2003-10-10T01:58:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Exapno Mapcase \* > \*\*Maybe I should turn this around. When is the origin of the Kryptonian S? \*\* Up until the first Superman movie, the “S” stood for Superman. In the comics, his costume was made my his adopted Earth mother, from the blankets he was wrapped in in the spaceship. Believe it or not, one of Marlon Brando’s demands for appearing in the movie was that he be able to were the “S” symbol. So, in order to “explain” why Jor-El would be sporting an English “S”, they put different symbols on the other Kryptonians in that scene, and called the S-in-a-diamond a Kryptonian symbol. So the reason the “S” became Kryptonian is that the little kid in Marlon Brando wanted to wear Superman’s symbol in the movie. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2003, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-s-question/206373/45 "2003-10-10T02:00:01Z")
Michael Fleischer’s **The Great Su[perman Book**, a literally encyclopedic treatment of all things Supermanian, was published in 1977 with the blessings of National Periodicals. It always speaks of the insignia on Superman’s chest and cape as a letter “S”, and never as anything else (see in particular pp. 327-329). It mentions the story "The Stolen “S” Shirts several times (Oct 1954). I’ve read the story – crooks steal shirts emblazoned with he letter “S” (like “Speedy” elivery service), up to and including Superman’s. Clearly, until 1977 at least, the Insignia was regarded as a stylized “S” and nothing more. Since the Superman movie came out in 1979 (and was in production in 1977-78), it seems pretty clear to me that the film introduced the idea that the insignia was a Kryptonian symbol or family crest that just happened to look like a Roman letter “S”. Les Daniels’ authoritatve **Superman: The Complete History** (1998) is silent on the issue, but if you look at the earliest sketches an the first comics with Superman, it’s clearly a letter “S” – it doesn’t even touch the sides o the “diamond”, as it did later. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2003, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-s-question/206373/46 "2003-10-10T06:38:13Z")
> [@](#): > > So the reason the “S” became Kryptonian is that the little kid in Marlon Brando wanted to wear Superman’s symbol in the movie. Hehe. That’s definitely the politest explanation possible. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2003, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-s-question/206373/47 "2003-10-10T06:42:26Z")
My $0.02… In the recent animated series, it was a Kryptonian symbol. In the recent D&K Ultimate Guide to Superman, it’s listed (IIRC) as deriving from a Kent-family crest, which came from an indian “medicine blanket.” In the pilot for _Smallville_, the crest was the of Clark Kent’s High School…but it was retconned out by the time of the second episode. (Which, I am informed, is set literally _seconds_ after the pilot episode. So the all the school’s insignia mysteriously changed within seconds, without anyone noticing. I smell a time traveler. 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2003, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-s-question/206373/48 "2003-10-10T06:46:14Z")
> [@](#): > > So the all the school’s insignia mysteriously changed within seconds, without anyone noticing. I smell a time traveler. ;)) Probably Mr. Mxyzptlk. (Am I a loser for googling to make sure I spelled that right?) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2003, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-s-question/206373/49 "2003-10-10T07:08:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Marley23 \* > \*\*Probably Mr. Mxyzptlk. (Am I a loser for googling to make sure I spelled that right?) \*\* Yes. Yes, you are. By the way, the golden-age version of the character, with a somewhat different appearance but simlar powers and behaviour, was named Mxyztplk (note the reversal of t and p). ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2003, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-s-question/206373/50 "2003-10-10T08:00:12Z")
Well, the first part of **Bryan** ’s post stung, but somehow I don’t feel so bad after reading the rest of it. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2003, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-s-question/206373/51 "2003-10-10T11:38:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Marley23 \* > \*\*Probably Mr. Mxyzptlk. (Am I a loser for googling to make sure I spelled that right?) \*\* I wouldn’t have said so. Surely a _real_ loser would know how to spell it off the top of his head? (And any possible variations in spelling 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![williamweigand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b3f665/32.png) [@williamweigand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/williamweigand)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2003, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-s-question/206373/52 "2003-10-10T13:01:43Z")
I must be a real loser- I’m reasonably certain I could have correctly spelled Mxyzptlk from memory.And,getting back to the “S”, when I was a kid watching the Superman series that starred George Reeves I didn’t even realize at first that it was an S…I thought those were just some odd red shapes against a yellow background! ---
**Author:** ![Snooooopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Snooooopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snooooopy)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2003, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-s-question/206373/53 "2003-10-10T13:10:43Z")
The “S” stands for “S-Mart.” Shop Smart! Shop S-Mart! ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2003, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-s-question/206373/54 "2003-10-10T16:19:18Z")
The introductory story was in 1944, “The Mysterious Mr. Mxyztplk!” ---
**Author:** ![williamweigand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b3f665/32.png) [@williamweigand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/williamweigand)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2003, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-s-question/206373/55 "2003-10-10T18:30:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by williamweigand \* > \*\*I must be a real loser- I’m reasonably certain I could have correctly spelled Mxyzptlk from memory.And,getting back to the “S”, when I was a kid watching the Superman series that starred George Reeves I didn’t even realize at first that it was an S…I thought those were just some odd red shapes against a yellow background! \*\* I feel like such an “S”… Evidently I could , from memory , correctly spell Mxyzptlk , but forgot that the “S” is red against a yellow background!Those odd yellow shapes were what I was originally fixated upon as a child. ---
**Author:** ![Sock\_Munkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Sock\_Munkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sock_Munkey)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2003, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-s-question/206373/56 "2003-10-11T00:43:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by williamweigand \* > \*\*I feel like such an “S”… Evidently I could , from memory , correctly spell Mxyzptlk , but forgot that the “S” is red against a yellow background!Those odd yellow shapes were what I was originally fixated upon as a child. \*\* You aren’t the only one who saw it that way, I remeber reading somewhere that another person thought it was two odd yellow shapes. (I think it was one of the letters posted in the back of the issue of superman when they changed his powers and made him an energy being) ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Dickerson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f04885/32.png) [@Scott\_Dickerson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Dickerson)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-s-question/206373/57 "2003-10-16T18:43:51Z")
“…In the 70’s (possibly as a result of the movie, or maybe not), it became the crest of the House of El. I seem to recall someone telling me that the Superman comics used the “House of El” concept BEFORE the movie, but I can’t swear to it…” Not correct…I think. It’s, obviously, very confusing. Not only because of the general, innocent retconning that happens over decades, but because the good folks at DC reserve the right to do MEGA retconning by means of various “special events” like CRISIS, ZERO HOUR, some stupid thing involving Wonder Woman’s mother, The Spectre (who can do just about anything) etc etc. I breathe fire like a Kryptonian Flame Dragon everytime I see events from one of the old Gardner Fox JLA stories depicted with BLACK CANARY in place of WONDER WOMAN. But I digress (frequently!). There wasn’t exactly a “House of El” prior to the movie–not even immediately after. In fact, I’m not sure it was “all there” even in the Byrne re-do. Yes, there were stoiries about Kal’s distinguished ancestors (whose honorific statues had turned to Kryptonite, BTW). But the Silver Age Krypton was almost nothing like today’s version. It was a fairly typical super-scientific industrial civilization, not too different from then-Rann or then-Thanagar, or even the then-Legion’s earth-to-be. People were pretty cas with each other, and there were no “houses” or “nobles” or anything like that. Jor-El and Lara (“Lara Lor-Van”, if you wanna know) lived together, slept together, begat in the standard way, and were pretty much Lucy and Ricky with miniskirt and headband. I think the yellow sun-symbol started appearing on JE’s green jacket started appearing in the late fifties, and became standard. I think I do remember that it represented the El family (I may be wrong). But I’m not sure it was even referred to as a “sun” symbol. After all, it doesn’t really look like an astronomical “sun.” It’s a circular yellow shape with a scalloped edge. If it does (did?) represent a sun, it might be a vestigial tradition from the old sun-worshipping Rao religion. So why yellow and not red? Maybe because assigning color to blindingly bright objects is more a matter of cultural convention than “just looking.” I myself wouldn’t say earth has a “yellow” sun–it looks white to me. Sometime in the late Silver Age, circa 1980, there was a Cary Bates story in ACTION that discussed the origin of the very symbol in question. I think it was called “Secret of the Super-S”, and is the tale referenced above, in which Ma Kent designed an old-fashioned-looking S-symbol which was set aside in favor of the standard one. It meant “Super” (-boy) and had nothing to do with Krypton. Incidentally, did any other DC heroes from the Golden Age have an initial on their costumes, other than Supie and Aquaman? A symbol, yes–but initial? ---
**Author:** ![ResIpsaLoquitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b3f665/32.png) [@ResIpsaLoquitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ResIpsaLoquitor)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-s-question/206373/58 "2003-10-16T18:52:12Z")
Wonder Woman has a sort of “WW” on her chest. Technically, however, this is a relatively recent introduction: before that, she had an eagle breastplate at the time of her golden age introduction. ---
**Author:** ![photopat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e95f7d/32.png) [@photopat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/photopat)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-s-question/206373/59 "2003-10-16T19:31:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scott Dickerson \* > \*\*Incidentally, did any other DC heroes from the Golden Age have an initial on their costumes, other than Supie and Aquaman? A symbol, yes–but initial? \*\* Robin. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Dickerson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f04885/32.png) [@Scott\_Dickerson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Dickerson)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2003, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-s-question/206373/60 "2003-10-17T06:21:01Z")
Right. Robin. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-s-question/206373.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-s-question/206373.md?page=4)