# Superman the Movie vs. Man of Steel **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 11, 2013, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-the-movie-vs-man-of-steel/676109 "2013-12-11T21:57:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Roundabout](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/dec6dc/32.png) [@Roundabout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roundabout)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-the-movie-vs-man-of-steel/676109/61 "2013-12-17T13:12:55Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Except, in comics, [Superman did kill general Zod.](http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/46385/2932470-Superman_kills_01.jpg) Of course, in the comics, that was after years and years of Superman not killing any one at all, and afterwards, he was so ashamed that he gave up the cloak and boots for a while. It was a BIG DEAL when he did it in the comics. In movie terms, Superman killing Zod should have been the “downer climax” to the second film in a trilogy, like Luke getting his hand chopped off in ESB, or Batman taking the blame for killing Dent in _Dark Knight._ The first film should have made a point of him not killing people, to set up how desperate he is when he fights Zod in the second. This is very important to note. Superman generally doesn’t kill in the comics, but when he does, it’s the end of the character. “Whatever happened to the Man of Tomorrow” ended the silver age Superman. Byrne’s “Superman 22” left the character insane and he quit as a superhero. “The Death of Superman” (obviously) killed the character as he murdered Doomsday. This is a big problem for me in MOS, because his act of murder actually begins his career instead of ending it. He snaps Zod’s neck without any apparent build up of his “no kill rule”, and he’s perfectly fine by the next scene. No consequences whatsoever. That’s very morbid for a movie that outright calls it’s character a “Symbol of Hope”. What exactly is he inspiring? ---
**Author:** ![Roundabout](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/dec6dc/32.png) [@Roundabout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roundabout)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-the-movie-vs-man-of-steel/676109/62 "2013-12-17T13:23:48Z")
> [@BMalion](#): > > I liked Reeve as Clark/Superman, the voice and the wholesomeness. I loved Gene Hackman as Lex. The 70’s feel. Nice. Reeves is personally my favorite actor who’s played Superman. He got the silver age duality of the character, and brought a lot of warmth to the part. 30 years later it’s still surprising to see Gene Hackman in the movie. An actor of his caliber giving off such good snark and comic delivery. Very fun. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-the-movie-vs-man-of-steel/676109/63 "2013-12-17T15:42:51Z")
> [@epbrown01](#): > > Actually. Batman doesn’t kill. I know, which is why I had issues with the otherwise good interpretation done by Burton. > [@Miller](#): > > Except, in comics, [Superman did kill general Zod.](http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/46385/2932470-Superman_kills_01.jpg) Of course, in the comics, that was after years and years of Superman not killing any one at all, and afterwards, he was so ashamed that he gave up the cloak and boots for a while. It was a BIG DEAL when he did it in the comics. In movie terms, Superman killing Zod should have been the “downer climax” to the second film in a trilogy, like Luke getting his hand chopped off in ESB, or Batman taking the blame for killing Dent in _Dark Knight._ The first film should have made a point of him not killing people, to set up how desperate he is when he fights Zod in the second. _Byrne!_ (Picture me saying that the same way that Kirk said “Khan!”). I do get your point about establishing the characters code versus killing and then having it become the catalyst for a third film in a trilogy when he does. I still would not have like it, but it would have been better storytelling. My feeling, however, is that a good story can neutralize Zod without killing him, or even some _deus ex machina_. Superman II establishes a way of removing Superman’s powers, and then turns the table on the villains. And while it doesn’t matter for movie trilogies, now Zod is alive and can find a way to either re-establish himself without powers or regain his powers. Win-Win. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-the-movie-vs-man-of-steel/676109/64 "2013-12-17T15:49:03Z")
I could live with him killing Zod; what I did not like about MoS is he did not even make a token effort to protect the people of Smallville and Metropolis. I would have liked some scenes of him at least trying to take the fighting away from the populations or him stopping to help someone. ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-the-movie-vs-man-of-steel/676109/65 "2013-12-17T17:27:47Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Not to get off topic, but it seems to me that only half the Avengers should be even useful in fighting off an alien invasion: > Iron Man - flying battle armor suit > Thor - Godlike indestructibility, flying, super strength and magic hammer weapon > Hulk - Indestructible rage monster > > The other three should be more or less useless: > Captain America - Great athlete with a shield > Hawkeye - bow & arrows > Black Widow - nice jugs > [@Miller](#): > > Cap’s leadership skills and tactical know-how are presented as critical to turning the alien invasion in the movie. The other two are little more expendable in the invasion, but having two people skilled at assassination and infiltration on the team would be useful in a whole lot of other situations - which, of course, we see in all the scenes leading up to the invasion. At the risk of continuing the hijack: Hawkeye disabled Loki by knocking him into Stark Tower, where the Hulk took him down for good. Black Widow hijacked a skiff and **closed the portal** while the heavies were holding back the invasion. They both used their skills to great effect, I thought. Hell, Black Widow was the one who actually stopped the invasion in its tracks. That’s what makes the Marvel movies so much more enjoyable than **Man of Steel** and most of the other DC movies: Marvel knows how to use its supers well. Heavies like Iron Man and Thor use their powers in novel ways, rather than just punching buildings down. Lightweights like Hawkeye and Black Widow use their stealth to get things done. Cap’s most useful talent is that he’s a fantastic leader and strategist; he handed out orders to the team to make the best use of their skills, _and they listened to him_. Contrast with **Man of Steel** : Superman broods, makes some sonic booms while flying around, and has a series of boring fights wherein he punches another super and they fly backwards and cause lots of collateral damage. Rise, repeat. Yawn. ---
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-the-movie-vs-man-of-steel/676109/66 "2013-12-17T17:45:47Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > I could live with him killing Zod; what I did not like about MoS is he did not even make a token effort to protect the people of Smallville and Metropolis. I would have liked some scenes of him at least trying to take the fighting away from the populations or him stopping to help someone. In the fight in Smallville, he intercepted Faora before she killed the 2nd fighter pilot, hit her again just before she killed Col. Hardy, and caught a random gunner when he fell from his gunship. But yeah, he was still too carefree about collateral damage - tackling Faora into Pete’s IHOP was just plain irresponsible. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-the-movie-vs-man-of-steel/676109/67 "2013-12-17T18:30:31Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > _Byrne!_ (Picture me saying that the same way that Kirk said “Khan!”). I do get your point about establishing the characters code versus killing and then having it become the catalyst for a third film in a trilogy when he does. I still would not have like it, but it would have been better storytelling. My feeling, however, is that a good story can neutralize Zod without killing him, or even some _deus ex machina_. Superman II establishes a way of removing Superman’s powers, and then turns the table on the villains. And while it doesn’t matter for movie trilogies, now Zod is alive and can find a way to either re-establish himself without powers or regain his powers. Win-Win. I think that’s how everyone says “Byrne.” But the ending to Superman II is more problematic than you remember, at least depending on which cut of the film you’re talking about. In the original cut, after Superman tricks the trio into depowering themselves, he straight up murders all three of them, throwing them into the misty chasms of the Fortress of Solitude. A later TV cut restored some cut footage, which shows the Kryptonians weren’t killed by the fall, and are being arrested, which isn’t so bad, but wasn’t even hinted at in the original cut. The worst, for my money, is the recent Director’s Cut, that’s meant to restore the film back to the way the original director, Richard Donner, wanted it. In the ending of that one, he kills the Kryptonians, then reverses time _again_ so that none of the event in the movie take place, making the entire exercise a blatant waste of time. Although, I think that might be the one version of the film that doesn’t feature Superman’s Date Rape Kiss superpower, so it’s got that much going for it, at least. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-the-movie-vs-man-of-steel/676109/68 "2013-12-18T01:11:22Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The worst, for my money, is the recent Director’s Cut, that’s meant to restore the film back to the way the original director, Richard Donner, wanted it. In the ending of that one, he kills the Kryptonians, then reverses time _again_ so that none of the event in the movie take place, making the entire exercise a blatant waste of time. I just watched the Director’s Cut for the first time, but I was multi-tasking during the chasm sequence. I thought he trapped them there, but I could easily be wrong. I did hate the reversing time thing (hated it in the first movie and hated it being brought back), though it does undo the killing them. ---
**Author:** ![Roundabout](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/dec6dc/32.png) [@Roundabout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roundabout)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-the-movie-vs-man-of-steel/676109/69 "2013-12-19T18:33:27Z")
Random question, but how do you guys think the character development compares in both movies? Me and I my friend were debating about it, and he felt that the characters in STM had no development, while I argued that Clark was developed in the Smallville portion of the movie (as well as with his relationship to Lois) I wanted to get some opinions on that aspect of the film ---
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-the-movie-vs-man-of-steel/676109/70 "2013-12-19T19:54:50Z")
STM had plenty of development, pretty much every conversation with Pa Kent advanced the character in some way, with his death being hugely influential. MoS had less character development of Clark, with Pa Kent’s chief impact not relating to his morals or using his powers for good, but raising him to never trust the government, media, and to some extent humanity in total. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-the-movie-vs-man-of-steel/676109/71 "2013-12-19T21:06:47Z")
> [@epbrown01](#): > > …Pa Kent’s chief impact not relating to his morals or using his powers for good, but raising him to never trust the government, media, and to some extent humanity in total. A product of the times, and probably not bad advice. I think Jonathan Kent in MoS knew how Clark was going to turn out, he was just trying to temper him to keep him from being too naive about the world at large. ---
**Author:** ![Roundabout](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/dec6dc/32.png) [@Roundabout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roundabout)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-the-movie-vs-man-of-steel/676109/72 "2013-12-20T13:13:03Z")
> [@epbrown01](#): > > STM had plenty of development, pretty much every conversation with Pa Kent advanced the character in some way, with his death being hugely influential. > > MoS had less character development of Clark, with Pa Kent’s chief impact not relating to his morals or using his powers for good, but raising him to never trust the government, media, and to some extent humanity in total. Thank you ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2013, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-the-movie-vs-man-of-steel/676109/73 "2013-12-20T13:23:42Z")
> [@Roundabout](#): > > **Superman the Movie vs. Man of Steel** Tough call. I’d guess **Superman** holds his own until **Man of Steel** reluctantly kills him. ---
**Author:** ![Roundabout](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/dec6dc/32.png) [@Roundabout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roundabout)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2013, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-the-movie-vs-man-of-steel/676109/74 "2013-12-21T13:19:24Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Tough call. I’d guess **Superman** holds his own until **Man of Steel** reluctantly kills him. Haha! Nice one. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2013, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-the-movie-vs-man-of-steel/676109/75 "2013-12-21T13:38:48Z")
I can barely remember _Superman_, but it is certainly better than _Man of Steel_ which I thought was one of the most disappointing movies, that I had looked forward to, for several years. All I can remember of\* Man of Steel\* is interminable fight scenes between invulnerable, indestructible beings. ---
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2013, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-the-movie-vs-man-of-steel/676109/76 "2013-12-21T21:25:10Z")
> [@don\_t\_ask](#): > > All I can remember of\* Man of Steel\* is interminable fight scenes between invulnerable, indestructible beings. That’s what a lot of people go to superhero movies for - basically wrestling with CGI. What MoS missed out on is more of Clark enjoying his powers, STM had sprinkled throughout the film (racing the train and beating Brad to his house “I ran”, his pretending to faint during the mugging with Lois). There’s a vibe in the earlier one that Clark enjoys helping people and being powerful, a joy we don’t see much of in MoS. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2013, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-the-movie-vs-man-of-steel/676109/77 "2013-12-22T16:36:56Z")
> [@epbrown01](#): > > That’s what a lot of people go to superhero movies for - basically wrestling with CGI. What MoS missed out on is more of Clark enjoying his powers, STM had sprinkled throughout the film (racing the train and beating Brad to his house “I ran”, his pretending to faint during the mugging with Lois). There’s a vibe in the earlier one that Clark enjoys helping people and being powerful, a joy we don’t see much of in MoS. Now that you mention it…_Man of Steel_ and the recent Batman movies do seem to feature characters who hate what they do (in contrast to Downey’s Iron Man, for example). I can understand it for Batman, with all the brooding and junk, but character angst gets tiresome, at least for me, and was a sour note in Raimi’s Spider-Man movies. I’ll mull it over some, but it occurs to me that super-heroes who enjoy being super-heroes (even if their enjoyment is expressed in violence and/or sadism) are more watchable. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2013, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-the-movie-vs-man-of-steel/676109/78 "2013-12-22T16:52:00Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’ll mull it over some, but it occurs to me that super-heroes who enjoy being super-heroes (even if their enjoyment is expressed in violence and/or sadism) are more watchable. I think that’s mostly true, although the X-Men wouldn’t be the X-Men without some heavy duty angsting over being a mutant. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-the-movie-vs-man-of-steel/676109/79 "2014-01-14T05:19:21Z")
Well, I really enjoyed MoS. Didn’t care for StM much. I watched it because I’ll watch any super hero movie, but it was way too childish and cheesy. I think it’s better for the young Clark to feel some pain and fear with his abilities, and want to be just like a normal kid. A super child with amazing powers is just asking for a demented despot who gets revenge on everyone who every hurt him (emotionally). MoS’s dad told him punching the other kid wouldn’t make him feel any better, and it’s understood he’d have killed him. So, there’s your “I’m from Kansas!” moment. He doesn’t kill, and he screamed and cried a bit when he was forced to kill Zod. Zod did force him, too. Zod existed purely to serve his people and his people were gone. He wanted to die. I liked when the soldiers lowered their weapons and the general guy said “he’s not our enemy.” It’d have been better if he’d said something more like, “he’s one of us” or “that’s our boy, cover him!” or something. ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-the-movie-vs-man-of-steel/676109/80 "2014-01-14T09:50:57Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > In the ending of that one, he kills the Kryptonians, then reverses time _again_ so that none of the event in the movie take place, making the entire exercise a blatant waste of time. > [@D\_Odds](#): > > I did hate the reversing time thing (hated it in the first movie and hated it being brought back) I also don’t like the “turn back time” thing, but I want to point out that the Donner Cut of _Superman II_ presents it as he originally intended it _as if the first movie_ was also as he originally intended it. In which case the “turn back time” ending ONLY would have happend in the second movie. The two films were originally planned to shoot concurrently, Donner filmed most of _Superman II_ before _S:TM_ went into post-production. “Turn back time” was planned to be the end of _Superman II_ and was _not_ the planned ending for _S:TM_. The Salkinds (the producers) then got cold feet on the whole “film both movies at once” plan and they decided a first film should be completed and released, putting the second movie on hold until they could evaluate the success of the first one. The planned “big ending” for _S:TM_ was to be a cliffhanger as Zod & Co. were seen to be released from the Phantom Zone (cause by the outer space explosion of the nuclear missile that Superman thrust out of Earth’s atmosphere). The cliffhanger ending was dropped since the release of a sequel was no longer a guaranteed plan. So, they needed a new “big ending” and the Salkinds decided to reappropriate the “turn back time” ending originally planned for the sequel. So, the inclusion of the “turn back time” ending in the Donner Cut of _Superman II_ represents how _Superman II_ would have been _if neither of the two movies had been tampered with_. Since there is no Donner Cut of _S:TM_ (he actually did see that movie to completion, so the movie as originally released actually is “The Donner Cut”), playing _S:TM_ back to back with the Donner Cut of _Superman II_ means you have to watch the same stupid ending twice. Unfortunate. But it’s not so much that they “did it again!”, it’s the “turn back time” ending sequenced as it had originally been planned. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-the-movie-vs-man-of-steel/676109.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-the-movie-vs-man-of-steel/676109.md?page=5)