# Superman vs Captain Marvel **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 13, 2006, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-vs-captain-marvel/380297 "2006-11-13T20:50:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![shizaru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@shizaru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shizaru)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2006, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-vs-captain-marvel/380297/1 "2006-11-13T20:50:59Z")
In the episode “Clash” Superman dukes it out with Captain Marvel. The Captain, or “The Big Red Cheese” as he was nicknamed was considered a direct rip off of Superman back in the day. DC Comics acquired ownership of the character so now he and Superman occupy the same universe, so to speak. Now, I’m only going from that single episode of Justice League Unlimited, but Superman seemed to clean Cap’s clock. But I always felt it was because Captain Marvel wasn’t really trying to fight Supes, he just wanted him to sit down and listen. After all, Superman was kind of acting like a brutish lunatic in that episode. Watch the episode and tell me…wasn’t Supes a bit too antagonistic and ready to hit first, ask questions later than what we kind of know Supes to be like? Despite that, Captain Marvel only fought Superman because he was cheesed off by Supes attitude. It can be said that he held back a tiny bit because as he said in the same episode “Superman was my my hero!”. I’m not suggesting who is stronger…but I’m asking you guys who you think is stronger, overall. In my mind I see them as almost equal in power. (Supes gets a small lead since he has powers that Marvel doesn’t like Heat vision, etc.) So who do you think is stronger? Cap or Supes? Or are they relatively equal? ---
**Author:** ![brianjedi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@brianjedi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianjedi)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2006, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-vs-captain-marvel/380297/2 "2006-11-13T20:53:46Z")
Shouldn’t Captain Marvel’s magic-based powers give him an edge over the Blue Boy Scout? Or have they retconned the magic vulnerability out? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2006, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-vs-captain-marvel/380297/3 "2006-11-13T21:06:24Z")
[QUOTE=brianjedi] Shouldn’t Captain Marvel’s magic-based powers give him an edge over the Blue Boy Scout? Or have they retconned the magic vulnerability out? [/QUOTE] I don’t recall if he tried it in that episode, but he has, I’ve heard, hurt Supes by grabbing him and yelling “SHAZAM” over and over; Superman’s vulnerable to the magic lightning. ---
**Author:** ![shizaru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@shizaru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shizaru)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2006, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-vs-captain-marvel/380297/4 "2006-11-13T21:12:55Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] I don’t recall if he tried it in that episode, but he has, I’ve heard, hurt Supes by grabbing him and yelling “SHAZAM” over and over; Superman’s vulnerable to the magic lightning. [/QUOTE] That happened in that episode. Supes was getting hurt by the lightning, but he twisted around so Cap got hit instead. The lightning changed him back to Billy Batson and Supes prevented him from saying “Shazam” again. I’ve heard it happened in the comics but i’ve never seen the books. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2006, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-vs-captain-marvel/380297/5 "2006-11-13T21:15:33Z")
Physically, they should be equals, and have usually been portrayed as such. However, despite the wisdom of Solomon, Captain Marvel is often betrayed by Billy Batson’s lack of experience. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2006, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-vs-captain-marvel/380297/6 "2006-11-13T21:18:38Z")
Superman and Captain Marvel have had it out several times in recent decades, most notably in the miniseries _Kingdom Come_ (where CM was a brainwashed pawn of Lex Luthor) and the _Lightning Strikes Twice_ storyline in Supes’s own book (Superman was possessed by Eclipso). In KC Superman just barely beat CM. In the second, CM managed to beat Superman (at least enough to exorcise him of Eclipso’s influence). ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2006, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-vs-captain-marvel/380297/7 "2006-11-13T21:18:57Z")
In _Kingdom Come_, the two battled it out (Marvel was brain controlled), with Marvel, using his magic lightning, getting the better of Supes for awhile, but, eventually Supes gets the upper hand and stops Marvel from saying Shazam. There is no decisive winner, because something else was going on (no spoilers), but it was interesting. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2006, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-vs-captain-marvel/380297/8 "2006-11-13T21:23:02Z")
Didn’t Superduperman get Captain Marbles to knock himself out with his own fist? Or am I misremembering? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2006, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-vs-captain-marvel/380297/9 "2006-11-13T21:27:22Z")
But would Cap’s innate magicness cause his fists to hurt Superman more than they might otherwise if he was just a really strong guy, like say Wonder Man? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2006, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-vs-captain-marvel/380297/10 "2006-11-13T21:35:18Z")
> [@](#): > > Didn’t Superduperman get Captain Marbles to knock himself out with his own fist? Or am I misremembering? “Hoo, boy! When he said he was knocking himself, he didn’t know the half of it!” ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2006, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-vs-captain-marvel/380297/11 "2006-11-13T21:42:29Z")
[QUOTE=Love Rhombus] But would Cap’s innate magicness cause his fists to hurt Superman more than they might otherwise if he was just a really strong guy, like say Wonder Man? [/QUOTE] They’re somewhat inconsistent, but the overall consensus seems to be yes, but not enough to gurantee Captain Marvel victory. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2006, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-vs-captain-marvel/380297/12 "2006-11-13T22:01:53Z")
[QUOTE=Hamlet] In _Kingdom Come_, the two battled it out (Marvel was brain controlled), with Marvel, using his magic lightning, getting the better of Supes for awhile, but, eventually Supes gets the upper hand and stops Marvel from saying Shazam. There is no decisive winner, because something else was going on (no spoilers), but it was interesting. [/QUOTE] It should be noted that the Superman in Kingdom Come had more than 10 years of soaking up excess solar radiation without him exerting himself so he was considered to be more powerful. Also, KC wasn’t canon but it was a good story. ---
**Author:** ![photopat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e95f7d/32.png) [@photopat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/photopat)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2006, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-vs-captain-marvel/380297/13 "2006-11-13T22:33:24Z")
In the “Crisis Times 5” storyline in JLA Cap knocked Superman out but had the element of surprise on his side. Supes wasn’t expecting it so Cap was able to get in a bunch of punches before he could react. Had Clark been prepared that probably wouldn’t have happened. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2006, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-vs-captain-marvel/380297/14 "2006-11-14T00:34:46Z")
[QUOTE=photopat] In the “Crisis Times 5” storyline in JLA Cap knocked Superman out but had the element of surprise on his side. Supes wasn’t expecting it so Cap was able to get in a bunch of punches before he could react. Had Clark been prepared that probably wouldn’t have happened. [/QUOTE] \ ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2006, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-vs-captain-marvel/380297/15 "2006-11-14T00:43:44Z")
Batman joke? What Batman joke? Batman doesn’t joke. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2006, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-vs-captain-marvel/380297/16 "2006-11-14T00:54:54Z")
[QUOTE=JThunder] Batman joke? What Batman joke? Batman doesn’t joke. [/QUOTE] Unless you count him admitting that “Crimes and Misdemeanors” was his favorite Woody Allen flick. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2006, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-vs-captain-marvel/380297/17 "2006-11-14T01:18:53Z")
[QUOTE=shizaru] That happened in that episode. Supes was getting hurt by the lightning, but he twisted around so Cap got hit instead. The lightning changed him back to Billy Batson and Supes prevented him from saying “Shazam” again. I’ve heard it happened in the comics but i’ve never seen the books. [/QUOTE] _Kingdom Come,_ issue #4. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2006, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-vs-captain-marvel/380297/18 "2006-11-14T02:14:27Z")
[Previous thread on this exact topic.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=246030) Conclusion… inconclusive. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2006, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-vs-captain-marvel/380297/19 "2006-11-14T02:16:08Z")
A couple thoughts: –Captain Marvel is described as “The World’s Mightiest Mortal.” This would appear to indicate that he’s stronger than Superman. On the other hand, one could argue that Superman isn’t originally from our world, so he doesn’t count. (Come to think of it, since Superman’s come back from the dead a couple times perhaps he isn’t numbered among mortals either.) –Captain Marvel is said to have “the strength of Hercules,” so it might be useful to consider whether Superman is stronger than Hercules. I suspect that he would be, though it’s kind of hard to say. Hercules’ strength is of divine origin, but seems fairly earthly in effect, so I don’t think he’d necessarily have a “magical” edge over Superman in that regard. Of course in the comics, Hercules occasionally crossed paths with Wonder Woman, but I don’t recall if it was ever formally established whether he’s stronger than she is. Hercules’ benchmark feat of strength was lifting the pillar separating the heavens from the earth, which is difficult to evaluate in non-mythological terms. If we interpret this as meaning that Hercules could lift the weight of Earth’s atmosphere, that would work out to about 5 quadrillion tons, or five dinosaur-killer asteroids-- which is probably not out of Superman’s ballpark. However, if “the heavens” means the gravitational pull of the rest of the universe, then Hercules (and therefore Captain Marvel) could lift at least the weight of the Earth itself. While this wouldn’t be a dealbreaker for Superman of the Silver Age, modern-day Supes would be completely hosed. –In the Golden and Silver Ages, Superman seemed to have a fixed maximum power level-- that is to say, while certain things could temporarily weaken him, he had no means of enhancing his everyday “super-strength.” Modern-day Superman, however, can amp his power up significantly by absorbing sunlight, or indeed by flying into the sun to supercharge himself. –I seem to recall that in the comics these days, the Marvel Family draws off some sort of shared power source, so that Captain Marvel is weakened somewhat if Mary Marvel or Cap Jr. are using their abilities. I have no idea how any of this has been altered by the recent **Shazam!** miniseries, as I haven’t been able to afford the latest issue yet. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2006, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-vs-captain-marvel/380297/20 "2006-11-14T12:47:59Z")
Way back in the olden days (1950s), Superman wasn’t anywhere near as powerful as he became, and the two were pretty much equal although they were never in the same world, obviously. Once Superman became strong enough to move planets from their orbit, he left Capn M way behind. I don’t know what’s happened since DC acquired the Captain. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superman-vs-captain-marvel/380297.md?page=2)