# Supernatural experiences **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 24, 2008, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supernatural-experiences/464984 "2008-09-24T14:24:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supernatural-experiences/464984/161 "2008-10-17T05:13:02Z")
Forgot to mention, my back has been hurting this week. Yesterday, it was starting to get so bad, I was thinking of calling the doctor again. However, today it’s perfectly fine, no pain at all. How bizarre, I wonder if that was related. ---
**Author:** ![Sunshine\_and\_Smiles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Sunshine\_and\_Smiles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunshine_and_Smiles)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supernatural-experiences/464984/162 "2008-10-17T07:09:23Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Not only that but you again say they “experience” ghosts, but when I ask for a simply answer about _what_ it is that they experience, _you can’t tell me_! > > Carry on. I haven’t had such a good laugh in ages. Aw, you’re cute. I don’t support or dissupport ghost sightings, but I think it’s charming that you should have such a vested interested. Are the ghosts, or James Randi, paying you to keep on their side? No? Then why not let these people tell their stories, and not hijack this thread further? (I wish I had a ghost story to tell right now, but I don’t. I’ve spent more time around graveyards than an anime teen and yet nothing. But I’m still reluctant to make judgement. Who knows what the hell is out there?) ---
**Author:** ![bathsheba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@bathsheba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bathsheba)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supernatural-experiences/464984/163 "2008-10-17T10:43:01Z")
My friend’s grandmother died on Wednesday, aged ninety-nine. My friend just received three messages\* on her mobile (cell) phone with the caller ID “99”\*\*. Just wondering if any-one knows if this is a known glitch? (I’m in Australia). - no message, actually. Phone beeped and said she had a message but when she opened the messages they were blank. \*\*Naturally, I told her she had to call back. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supernatural-experiences/464984/164 "2008-10-17T12:48:40Z")
> [@bathsheba](#): > > My friend’s grandmother died on Wednesday, aged ninety-nine. My friend just received three messages\* on her mobile (cell) phone with the caller ID “99”\*\*. Just wondering if any-one knows if this is a known glitch? (I’m in Australia). Never heard of that glitch, but electronic devices can definitely be affected by spiritual energy. On the other hand, electronics glitch in weird, random ways all the time… Interesting coincidence, however. Especially since it was repeated three times. Hope you don’t mind if I ask a few questions (unlike **Princhester** , I’m genuinely interested in the answers): (1) How close was your friend to her grandmother? Did they share a close relationship? How sharp was her mind when she died? (2) Was her GM the type of person who would attempt to reach out from the afterlife, if such a thing were possible? (This is a BIG one.) (3) During their last conversation, did they discuss her age at all? Was reaching 99 a major milestone for her? (4) Did GM know your friend’s cell phone number? (5) Is there any exchange in your area beginning with “99”? Sorry for your friend’s loss, btw. > [@](#): > > \*\*Naturally, I told her she had to call back. Heh. Now _that_ would’ve won her a million, for sure!! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/46a35a/32.png) [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walker_in_Eternity)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supernatural-experiences/464984/165 "2008-10-17T14:07:44Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > That’s a good definition for “supernatural”. In other words: “Anything that is beyond one’s current understanding of ‘natural’.” Hopefully we can agree on this as a starting point for discussion. One of the problems with the scientific community (of which I am a part) is that if an idea does not conform to an established paradigm then it will be dismissed out of hand regardless of any evidence to the contrary. Apologies for the slight divergence off topic, but it is relevant: Take, for example, string theory, for several years this was the only game in town, regardless of the fact that it was purely theoretical, unprovable and un-testable by any current technology, but anyone against it was shouted down. Only recently have people begun to come out fo the woodwork and speak against it. The supernatural is the same, no respectable scientist is willing to admit to carrying out research in this area as the rest would make sure they never get published in a peer reviewed journal again. So if there were any evidence to support the supernatural it would be suppressed by the mainstream group. I’m not saying I believe in the supernatural, because I don’t, but people seem to be having some kind of experience and it should be researched properly, not dismissed as crank behaviour or some form of mental illness or fakery. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supernatural-experiences/464984/166 "2008-10-17T14:19:35Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > If you think it’s a sensible question, then perhaps you would care to answer it. > > I am thinking of a well known work of fiction that reputedly contains one or more ghosts. Tell me what a ghost is, so that I recognise it when I see it in the fictional work. > > If the ghost in this work of fiction fails to match your definition does that indicate that: > > 1. your definition is wrong > 2. the ghost isn’t really a ghost, but actually a different sort of entity > 3. the author made a mistake > 4. something else. > > If **Princhester** ’s question isn’t a stupid, pathetic threadshitting waste of time, then you should be able to answer it. I’m a bit reluctant to engage in the hijacking of this thread, but that’s a bit of a weak argument in my opinion – naturally, every fictional work involving ghosts contains its own definition of ‘ghost’, namely everything it portrays as being a ghost. That’s why its fiction, after all. However, I’m not quite on board with the “‘ghost’ isn’t well-defined and thus, meaningless” kind of reasoning either – I’ve mentioned it somewhere else, but technically, ‘table’ isn’t terribly well defined, either; the only commonality I can see is that all of them have a flat plane somewhere, and still, not everything that has a flat plane somewhere is a table. But, supernatural is certainly well defined: everything that doesn’t adhere to the laws of nature (as they’re currently understood)\*. So, since ghosts are commonly claimed to be a supernatural phenomenon, we can say that everything that does adhere to the laws of nature isn’t a ghost, and have our definition attain some meaning. Further, ghostly phenomena appear to be localized, so everything global/universal probably isn’t a ghost, either. Also, ghosts seem to be thought of as being in some manner personal, addressable, able to respond (seemingly) intelligently (people will attempt to reason with such phenomena; nobody attempts to reason with the wind or other impersonal natural or supernatural forces). And so on. Generally, one could obtain a definition of ghost just cataloguing all ‘experiences’ with them; that may not be a very valuable definition, but a definition nonetheless. Perhaps one could then abstract further common traits from this catalogue, or those that are at least somewhat wide-spread (as it isn’t necessary for a table to have four legs, but reasonably common). So, it doesn’t seem true that ghosts are undefinable; the definition may be broad, and encompass what might be in fact distinct phenomena, but to have some handle to address this phenomenon by, it’s certainly good enough. Personally, I give ghosts as much credence as UFOs, the Loch Ness monster and elves, but the mere fact that I can formulate this sentence means that there’s enough meaning to the word ‘ghost’ that the concept can be talked about. \*I only included the parenthetical part as a sort of backdoor; personally, I’d say that anything truly supernatural ought to violate _true_ natural laws, but for the purposes of this thread, I’d let it slide. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supernatural-experiences/464984/167 "2008-10-17T15:37:49Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > I’d say that anything truly supernatural ought to violate _true_ natural laws This is impossible. The laws of nature are inviolable. (You cannot change the laws of physics, Jim!) If something appears to violate known laws of physics, it means (1) our knowledge of natural law is incomplete or mistaken, or (2) there’s a flaw in our observation method. Those are the ONLY two possibilities. Well, maybe one more: (3) Hi, Opal! ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supernatural-experiences/464984/168 "2008-10-17T16:03:01Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > Yes, and that’s really the crux of it all. Encountering a ghost is a highly subjective experience – events that seem intensely personal and life-altering to one person, may seem trivial and pointless to everyone else. What’s a ghost?🙂 See the problem? Calling it a ghost suggests that the experience is objective, not subjective; that there is a on some level a common experience, or a common artifact, as it were. If everyone experiences it differently, how can you possibly know that they are all experiencing ghosts? ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supernatural-experiences/464984/169 "2008-10-17T16:48:51Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > This is impossible. The laws of nature are inviolable. (You cannot change the laws of physics, Jim!) If something appears to violate known laws of physics, it means (1) our knowledge of natural law is incomplete or mistaken, or (2) there’s a flaw in our observation method. Those are the ONLY two possibilities. Well, maybe one more: (3) Hi, Opal! I’d agree that I believe this to be impossible (which is after all the reasonable assumption to make), but it’s by no means necessarily like that: consider a computer simulation – it works according to its rules, invariably. Except, of course, if the user suddenly decides to change the rules on a lark and inserts a 300 foot tall pink bunny that devours Tokyo. That’s to say that no observation we make in this world can ever rule out that it isn’t subject to the whims of some outside world. Doesn’t mean that’s probable, or that it’s ever in any way the reasonable position to take (cause it flat out isn’t), but it cannot logically be excluded. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supernatural-experiences/464984/170 "2008-10-17T17:52:38Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > I’m a bit reluctant to engage in the hijacking of this thread, but that’s a bit of a weak argument in my opinion – naturally, every fictional work involving ghosts contains its own definition of ‘ghost’, namely everything it portrays as being a ghost. That’s why its fiction, after all. [/SIZE] The point is that every claimed supernatural experience is different. It would be impossible to give a definition that includes all of them. As an example, it would never occur to me that a random message on a mobile phone might be supernatural. But some people, apparently see it as such. I couldn’t possibly have given a definition of “ghost” that would have included that. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supernatural-experiences/464984/171 "2008-10-17T21:28:55Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > What’s a ghost?🙂 > > See the problem? Calling it a ghost suggests that the experience is objective, not subjective; that there is a on some level a common experience, or a common artifact, as it were. If everyone experiences it differently, how can you possibly know that they are all experiencing ghosts? There are plenty of ghostly accounts which were witnessed by multiple people. For example, check out **Sampiro** ’s story in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=475935&page=3) (replies #143 & 147) As for “experiencing it differently,” that’s merely because we all experience reality itself differently. We can agree on certain basic things, but on other issues – especially those with a heavy emotional impact, which includes ghosts – people disagree all the time. For example, the recent death of Paul Newman affected some people very deeply, whereas to many others (esp. the younger generations who have never seen his movies or his salad dressing) it was just another random headline. > [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > Except, of course, if the user suddenly decides to change the rules on a lark and inserts a 300 foot tall pink bunny that devours Tokyo. Well…if something like _that_ happened, I’d suspect it’s the work of highly advanced extraterrestrial aliens fucking with us (which, btw, would explain nearly all the the “miracles” described in the Old Testament, if compelling evidence existed that proved they all actually happened as described.) And if extraterrestrial aliens DO exist, they are subject to the same laws of physics as our own solar system, or at least it’s reasonable to assume so. ---
**Author:** ![bathsheba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@bathsheba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bathsheba)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supernatural-experiences/464984/172 "2008-10-17T22:13:35Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > (1) How close was your friend to her grandmother? Did they share a close relationship? How sharp was her mind when she died? Very close. My friend used to manage the facility where Nan lived and visited frequently. She talked of her often and was with her in the days before she died. > [@KGS](#): > > (2) Was her GM the type of person who would attempt to reach out from the afterlife, if such a thing were possible? (This is a BIG one.) Yes. It was something they talked about often as my friend lost her father very suddenly a couple of years ago. Hardly conclusive proof but the messages came at the first time my friend felt teary about Nan’s death. Being the age Nan was, my friend is pretty much at peace with it, but was having a bit of a “moment”. The first message she ignored but after the second it occurred to her that “99” may be significant and asked out loud, “Nan, is that you?” and then she received the third message. Now, she would like to know where she collects her million, THNX. > [@KGS](#): > > (3) During their last conversation, did they discuss her age at all? Was reaching 99 a major milestone for her? Yes, age was a big issue. Reaching 100 was going to be significant. > [@KGS](#): > > (4) Did GM know your friend’s cell phone number? Yes. > [@KGS](#): > > (5) Is there any exchange in your area beginning with “99”? No. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supernatural-experiences/464984/173 "2008-10-17T22:23:16Z")
**bathsheba** – I’ll send you a PM. ---
**Author:** ![Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8c91f0/32.png) [@Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bam_Boo_Gut)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supernatural-experiences/464984/174 "2008-10-17T22:50:34Z")
My daughter - aged about three was out in the garden - I heard her arguing with someone - I looked out and she was all alone. This happened a couple more times - I’ve never heard her talk to herself except singing, and here she was arguing with someone. She seemed quite distressed and complained asking us to tell that mean old lady to leave her alone. The next time I heard her arguing I went out and said leave her alone - to no-one. She described the old lady as wearing a headscarf and carrying a cutlass and although this could be a fairly standard description for an old person in our area - when we asked about who had previously lived in the house we were told she was a miserable old woman always driving the kids out of the mango trees with her cutlass… ---
**Author:** ![Uncle\_Brother\_Walker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f08c70/32.png) [@Uncle\_Brother\_Walker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncle_Brother_Walker)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supernatural-experiences/464984/175 "2008-10-18T06:59:14Z")
> [@dinoboy](#): > > …most explanations of ghosts (or poltergeists) try to have it both ways: On one hand it is claimed that “ghost energy" can move [physical] things (or makes [physical] noises) but on the other, it also _moves through_ such [physical] things to get around. I’d like to see the evidence that convinces anyone to think this duality is possible. DUH! They’re GHOSTS!!! They have different rules! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supernatural-experiences/464984/176 "2008-10-18T07:40:40Z")
> [@dinoboy](#): > > On one hand it is claimed that “ghost energy" can move [physical] things (or makes [physical] noises) but on the other, it also _moves through_ such [physical] things to get around. You’re talking about [Solids](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solids), right? You do realize that solids aren’t really “solid”, right? Besides, solids don’t block everything – electricity and heat pass through solid matter just fine. Electricity can also knock solids around, if a lightning bolt strikes! I see no discrepancy here, if you assume ghosts are made of pure energy. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supernatural-experiences/464984/177 "2008-10-18T08:53:02Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > Well…if something like _that_ happened, I’d suspect it’s the work of highly advanced extraterrestrial aliens fucking with us (which, btw, would explain nearly all the the “miracles” described in the Old Testament, if compelling evidence existed that proved they all actually happened as described.) And if extraterrestrial aliens DO exist, they are subject to the same laws of physics as our own solar system, or at least it’s reasonable to assume so. Doesn’t matter that there may be other mechanism leading to similar effects, I merely intended to show that truly supernatural phenomena are at least a logical possibility. Not one I’d lend much credence to, but saying that everything ultimately _has_ to adhere to natural laws simply isn’t true. > [@KGS](#): > > You’re talking about [Solids](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solids), right? You do realize that solids aren’t really “solid”, right? Besides, solids don’t block everything – electricity and heat pass through solid matter just fine. Electricity can also knock solids around, if a lightning bolt strikes! I see no discrepancy here, if you assume ghosts are made of pure energy. What, exactly, do you take ‘pure energy’ to mean? Neither electricity nor heat fits the bill – electricity is fundamentally electrons moving around, and heat is randomized molecular movement. In fact, the notion of ‘pure energy’ doesn’t seem to make very much sense in a physical way to me. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supernatural-experiences/464984/178 "2008-10-18T10:59:36Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > What, exactly, do you take ‘pure energy’ to mean? Neither electricity nor heat fits the bill – electricity is fundamentally electrons moving around, and heat is randomized molecular movement. In fact, the notion of ‘pure energy’ doesn’t seem to make very much sense in a physical way to me. Ghosts have no material form. Since everything in the universe is comprised of matter and/or energy (and matter is actually a form of highly organized energy) ghosts _must_ have an energy component. That’s what I mean by “pure energy” – ghosts possess no matter, only energy. In fact, I’m starting to think we are looking in the wrong place. I’m starting to wonder if the the physical definition of a ghost isn’t a form of energy _per se_, but a manifestation of a _rhythm_ or _resonance_ embedded within already existing matter/energy. Perhaps the physical definition of a “ghost” is a pattern of tiny variations within molecules themselves, or patterns of electrons which are slightly out of sync…which brings quantum physics into the equation. Ugh! That stuff makes my brain hurt. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supernatural-experiences/464984/179 "2008-10-18T11:35:33Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > Ghosts have no material form. Since everything in the universe is comprised of matter and/or energy (and matter is actually a form of highly organized energy) ghosts _must_ have an energy component. That’s what I mean by “pure energy” – ghosts possess no matter, only energy. > > In fact, I’m starting to think we are looking in the wrong place. I’m starting to wonder if the the physical definition of a ghost isn’t a form of energy _per se_, but a manifestation of a _rhythm_ or _resonance_ embedded within already existing matter/energy. Perhaps the physical definition of a “ghost” is a pattern of tiny variations within molecules themselves, or patterns of electrons which are slightly out of sync…which brings quantum physics into the equation. Ugh! That stuff makes my brain hurt. :mad: You COULD say ghosts are akin to photons, they exist but don’t exactly have mass. However, that’s opening up a whole 'nother can of worms. And the “tape recorder” explanation has been tread and retread ad nauseum, it still never answers what it IS. What compels the photons/electrons/monkeys to suddenly get up and decide to imitate a past event every so often? And furthermore, why do some appear to be INTELLIGENT? Some, certainly, are basically “recordings” they just do one thing over and over, and never answer, they’re always seen going up the stairs and nothing else. But some are claimed to talk, interact, play with books, etc and here the imprint explanation makes little to no sense. So… we’re back to where we started. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supernatural-experiences/464984/180 "2008-10-18T11:48:30Z")
> [@Bam\_Boo\_Gut](#): > > She described the old lady as wearing a headscarf and carrying a cutlass and although this could be a fairly standard description for an old person in our area - [my underline…obv.]Sounds like an interesting neighbourhood, **BBG**. Are there a lot of pirate’s widows in them thar parts? 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supernatural-experiences/464984.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supernatural-experiences/464984.md?page=10)