Supernatural experiences

Maybe so. But I just object in principle to the attitude. The arrogance that led Lavoisier to say “a stone cannot fall from the sky because there are no stones in the sky” is wrong at any time. Maybe you should actually look up what “critical thinking” really means and try to apply it.

And by the way, I can picture your behaviour if you had been around at the time:

*What exactly do you think a meteorite is? Are you saying it’s a the judgment of God on the unholy? Do you think it’s a bit of The Moon that fell off? or maybe the sky itself is falling down? Go on, tell me what you think it is. You can’t do it, you can’t even tell me what you think it means, so that means I’ve won. Sneer sneer sneer, yadda yadda yadda *

I assume you are directing this at me though goodness knows why since the attitude you appear to be suggesting I have seems to be precisely the opposite of what I have been saying for about a page now. Have you actually read my posts 54, 59, 68 and 78?

I have said precisely that I am not looking for anything more than an explanation of what a ghost is sufficient to recognise one and distinguish one from other things I might experience.

I have specifically rejected** Jolly Roger and KGS’s **explanation of what precisely they think a ghost might be as not being what I am looking for. I am precisely not seeking an explanation of what a ghost is exactly, or where they come from. I just want to know how to recognise one and distinguish it from other things I might experience.

This probably just furthers the hijack, but there’s a common misconception to this kind of discussion that’s also been brought up here – saying ‘maybe it’s some kind of unknown energy’ isn’t any more scientific that saying it’s the souls of dead people, and saying ‘scientists were wrong before’ does not lend any more credence to that assertion.

See, when scientists were wrong before (in the sense of disbelieving phenomena that turned out to be real), it’s generally been about things small compared to the precision of measurement during their time, like plate tectonics – today, we can use precision satellite measurements to determine the rate at which South America and Africa drift apart, back when the theory of continental drift was formulated, not so much.

However, to find something large compared to contemporary measurement precision is very rare and surprising (I can’t actually think of a single time that’s happened), and a new form of ‘energy’ capable of manifesting ghost-like phenomena certainly would be such a discovery; I won’t say it’s impossible, but only because, strictly speaking, everything is possible.

Consider an analogy: Mankind started out in a dark room, filled with stuff. At first, we just kinda shambled around and bumped our heads, but then, we started actively feeling around, getting a good overview of our surroundings, sort of a mental map of all the furniture and some basic ideas of what it was that’s around us, and at some point, we found a flash light to brighten up the dark a bit, and then somebody stumbled upon the light switch, and we didn’t have to feel around any more, we could just observe, and over time, we discovered ever more sophisticated means to examine our surroundings, perhaps microscopes and what have you, and right now, we’re basically busy examining every square inch of every object in our little room – and there’s certainly still a lot of stuff to be discovered, and maybe there’s even a drawer or two nobody’s looked into yet, but certainly, we don’t expect to one day just stumble over a new armchair everybody’s just missed all the time. It’s not, strictly speaking, impossible; but it’s highly unlikely and thus, nobody seriously considers that possibility, it wouldn’t be a reasonable assumption.
(At each point in the process, to look at this from a different angle, there’s been people who have been grossly wrong – a supposed cupboard might have turned out to be a hanging bookshelf, and certainly philosophizing over the pattern decorating the tablecloth was a thoroughly academic exercise before the discovery of the flash light, and once the switch got flipped, that discussion became moot real quick – and, in hindsight, obviously so, and this pattern is likely to continue into the foreseeable future; however, the size and impact of the things one could be wrong about has, similarly steadily, continuously declined the more was discovered about the room and its furnishing.)

Of course, now I fully expect someone to lift a carpet next week and find a trapdoor beneath it, but even then I’d still be justified in reasonably assuming now that this won’t happen. :wink:

Yes I have, and all I see there is stupid word games that are obviously intended as threadshitting. You don’t want an answer to your question, and you refuse to accept any answer you’re given.

Mirror, mirror…

When I saw her, my grandmother was wearing the same dress and apron that she was wearing when my aunt found her.

I knew a woman in the Scouts who had a poltergeist. She talked about it all the time, had a name for him, etc. He would make noises, move or hide small objects, etc. She would talk to him and tell him to stop it. For example, she told about the time she couldn’t find her scissors. She knew where they were supposed to be, but they weren’t in the drawer. So she closed it, spoke out loud to the poltergeist telling him to stop playing around, opened the drawer, and there they were.

The problem is that this woman is the most scatterbrained person I’ve ever met. I watched her spend 5 minutes looking for a pen that was sitting on the pad of paper right in front of her. She constantly ‘misplaced’ things, and then blamed us for taking them. And nothing you said would convince her otherwise. She was fine, everyone else was the problem.

The human mind is built to look for patterns, and finds them even if there are none. Our senses are also notoriously unreliable. This is all stuff we know, stuff that’s been demonstrated over and over. I don’t understand why people need to reach for ill-defined and ridiculously improbable explanations like ghosts when it’s not necessary. Further, I don’t understand why people think that ‘ghosts’ is a better and more common sense answer than anything rational. As far as I’m concerned, if you want to claim ghosts exist, in what ever form, you need to step up with some serious evidence. If you don’t, I feel free to file it under ‘delusional’ and carry on.

That doesn’t answer my question though. Even if you believe that someone’s spirit looks exactly the same as their physical self, why can they take non-living objects like their clothes to the other side?

You can argue for the existence of anything you like on the basis that it’s outside the limits of current scientific understanding, such as elves, pink elephants, and God. Science hasn’t proven that these things occur because there isn’t any testable evidence of them, which doesn’t imply whatsoever their actual existence.

Well, it’s possible that innumerable things exist without there being evidence of their existence, but those things would by necessity be invisible, intangible and generally inaccessible (since any kind of interaction would constitute a method of detection, i.e. of obtaining evidence), and thus of no consequence at all.

Ambrose Bierce asked gthe same question. If it were possible to contact him now, I guess he’d have an answer.

My one and only first hand odd experience - I have a small pendulum wall clock (reverse banjo style). It’s from 1912, and it has two keyholes; one for winding of the clock mechanism, the other for winding of the bell strike mechanism. The clock strikes once on the half hour, and strikes the time on the hour. It’s purely mechanical. I only wind the one side to keep time, as I find the bell chiming the half and full hours annoying after a while.
My father passed away last February. When I opened the door of the house (located next to the clock) when coming back from the wake, the clock started chiming. I did not count the number of chimes, but there was enough that everyone else in the family came in through the door before it stopped. It rang as if it was fully wound, in that the rings were strong and evenly spaced (if the strike mechanism was almost unwound, you would get a “draggy”, slower ring pattern.)
The odd part of this was that it was 10:43. I have never had the clock ring at a time other than the hour or the half-hour. I’ve spent a fair amount of time playing around with trying to reproduce this, but have not been able to get even a single ring out of it at any time other than the hour or half hour. I’ve tried to wind just enough tension onto the strike mechanism so that I could get it to ring
at 43 past the hour by moving or tapping the clock, but the only time it will ring is when the minute hand is moving through the vertical.

And how do you get a ghostly vehicle? But that doesn’t rule out the possibility that an event hasn’t been recorded to the landscape/location, by some means not yet understood, and something in certain people’s minds is setting off, or perceiving the events.

That’s exactly what I said.

…And I read the complete wrong way round. Sorry. :smack:

Hey, no worries. :cool:

Your exact question was:

I answered that my grandmother was wearing the same dress and apron that she was wearing when my aunt found her. At least in her case, her appearance included the clothing she was wearing at the time of her death. From what I saw, no one had issued her any new “ghost clothes”. It would appear that the impression of what she was wearing went with her, but I don’t have any other manifestations to compare it to.

Answering the OP -

My dad died going on two years ago now. Since his passing we’ve experienced the following:

  • I was in a surly, cranky mood. I was in my room ranting at him while changing my clothes. I heard the Wheel of Fortune game song - WTF? I have a handheld Wheel of Fortune game that I had not played in quite a while, it was in a dresser drawer that I had not been near. It played for maybe 10 seconds. I took it out of the dresser, laid it on top and told him “That’s enough”. A few days later it went off again while I was talking to him. I took it in the kitchen, stating I didn’t want to hear it again. We took off the back, thinking maybe the batteries were dying and like how some electronic do it went off to let me know. There was only one battery in it. It’s now residing in a drawer in the kitchen.
  • My mom and my grandniece were playing cards in my moms’ kitchen. Above the counter she has a clock kind of like a “Krazy Kat” clock, but it’s a dog. This clock hasn’t worked in a long time. It had batteries in it, just didn’t work. Mom and Bee were playing dads’ favorite card game and talking about him. The clock started (eyes moving/tail wagging). It went for a few minutes and stopped. This has occurred two other times.
  • This past week we’ve been having “issues” at my house. Lots of stress, yelling, just not a fun time being had by all. Monday was the worst, including my daughter telling me to fuck off and other lovely sentiments. Monday, after work, I shut off the basement light on my way out of my “office”. I KNOW I shut it off, because I accidently spilled soda on myself doing so. An hour later, with no one having gone near the basement, the light was flipped back on. I shut it off again, went about my business. TheKid went into the kitchen a few hours later - the basement light was on again. She told Dad to “stop it, I’m not amused!” and switched it off. Went back into her bedroom and her bedroom light was off, which she had left on. No, the basement and her bedroom are not on the same circuit. That evening I did my usual OCD like rounds, making sure all the doors were locked, windows shut, lights off. Tuesday morning the basement light was back on.

What does it mean? I dunno.

I’m not questioning that she or any other ghost wears clothes, this is already assumed. I want to know WHY people can take non-living objects such as clothes to the other side with them.

Obviously when they wish to manifest they create a visible form out of ectoplasm, and their own self created form includes clothes. :wink: