# Superstition is the Enemy of All Mankind. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 13, 2003, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superstition-is-the-enemy-of-all-mankind/174976 "2003-05-13T16:03:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superstition-is-the-enemy-of-all-mankind/174976/41 "2003-05-14T05:32:27Z")
> [@](#): > > It is the women and children who are taking it in the shorts. The men only die after first infecting up to a dozen others. Oh of course. Men are sleping with more women than women are with men. Or are we to assume that all thee women are the victims of rape? ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superstition-is-the-enemy-of-all-mankind/174976/42 "2003-05-14T05:35:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Q.E.D. \* > I’m with **RexDart** on this one. 100%. Believing in something that has zero science behind it is silly. Yes, that includes god, and any other ridiculous belief system. As a scientific person, I have a tendency to question faith-based articles rather intensely. Such questioning in _no way_ permits me to ridicule someone else’s own beliefs to their face. Yes, I might do it in private but to come right out and dismiss other people out of hand as silly is rude, ill mannered and plain ignorant in and of itself. Let’s see you blather on this way to **Polycarp**. In fact, this is a good example of what I was responding to in my previous post. Because of the institutionalized nature of the major religions, people tend to be more reluctant about needling or skewering such “mainstream” beliefs. If this is what you are doing, you are more full of shit than the superstitious or those who believe in the supernatural. _Nowhere_ does it say in Wiccan writings to be intolerant of others and their beliefs. Yes, scientific proof is a critical feature of physical reality. Yet, using any dependence upon it in order to utterly dismiss the possibility of spiritual existence is outrageous. Fear not, I have an intensely difficult time with notions of reincarnation and the immortal soul. However, this does not permit me to completely dispense with any civility or respect for those who attempt to build peaceful and constructive lives around those beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superstition-is-the-enemy-of-all-mankind/174976/43 "2003-05-14T05:35:51Z")
Fine, whatever, I don’t tolerate any belief systems that cannot back themselves up with rudimentary evidence. So, sue me. I believe what I can rationally explain, and that’s it. Period. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superstition-is-the-enemy-of-all-mankind/174976/44 "2003-05-14T05:38:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Q.E.D. \* > \*\*Fine, whatever, I don’t tolerate any belief systems that cannot back themselves up with rudimentary evidence. So, sue me. I believe what I can rationally explain, and that’s it. Period. \*\* And this gives you the right to insult others? That doesn’t make you into a bold defender of reason, it makes you a narrowminded jerk. YJMV(Your Jerkiness May Vary) ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superstition-is-the-enemy-of-all-mankind/174976/45 "2003-05-14T05:41:04Z")
Y’know, I just thought of something: y’know how some Christians believe that it’s their hidebound duty to convert atheists and those of other religions, because otherwise, their souls will go to hell, and doing nothing would be the ultimate disservice to them? I wonder whether there’s a difference between that position, and the idea that athiests are duty-bound to forcefully stamp out religious thinking, on the grounds that it is retarding human progress and actively harming both those who believe it, and society in general…? ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superstition-is-the-enemy-of-all-mankind/174976/46 "2003-05-14T05:44:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mockingbird \* > **That doesn’t make you into a bold defender of reason, it makes you a narrowminded jerk.** Prove me wrong. I’ll eat my words if you can. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superstition-is-the-enemy-of-all-mankind/174976/47 "2003-05-14T05:49:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Q.E.D. \* > \*\*Fine, whatever, I don’t tolerate any belief systems that cannot back themselves up with rudimentary evidence. So, sue me. I believe what I can rationally explain, and that’s it. Period. \*\* You do realize that what you just said is that you are intolerant of _all_ religions, right? If that’s what you feel, more power to you, just don’t be shocked when someone calls you intolerant when you display your feelings publicly. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superstition-is-the-enemy-of-all-mankind/174976/48 "2003-05-14T05:51:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Q.E.D. \* > \*\*Prove me wrong. I’ll eat my words if you can. \*\* So, you get carte blanche to be a jerk and be intolerant until proof is brought to you? Amazing. So, are you saying I can either have faith in something that gives me strength and solace, or I can be a jerk like you? Wow. You make it look like such a seductive choice. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superstition-is-the-enemy-of-all-mankind/174976/49 "2003-05-14T05:53:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Q.E.D. \* > \*\*Prove me wrong. I’ll eat my words if you can. \*\* So, for a religious person to prove his or her worth to you as a rational person deserving of respect, all (s)he has to do is prove the existence of God or the paranormal? I hope you don’t mind being disappointed with the vast majority of humanity, in that case… ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superstition-is-the-enemy-of-all-mankind/174976/50 "2003-05-14T05:55:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Leaper \* > \*\*Y’know, I just thought of something: y’know how some Christians believe that it’s their hidebound duty to convert atheists and those of other religions, because otherwise, their souls will go to hell, and doing nothing would be the ultimate disservice to them? I wonder whether there’s a difference between that position, and the idea that athiests are duty-bound to forcefully stamp out religious thinking, on the grounds that it is retarding human progress and actively harming both those who believe it, and society in general…? \*\* I don’t see a difference. Not a single difference at all. Just as not every Christian proselytizes and forces their faith on others, not every atheist forces their lack of faith. gobear doesn’t believe. That is his choice and right, which I have no place to criticize or defame. The same should be true as it applies to those who do believe in a higher power, what ever shape that may take. ---
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superstition-is-the-enemy-of-all-mankind/174976/51 "2003-05-14T05:55:51Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Mockingbird_ > **That doesn’t make you into a bold defender of reason, it makes you a narrowminded jerk.** > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Q.E.D._ \*\* > Prove me wrong. I’ll eat my words if you can.\*\* Q.E.D., you’ve already proven yourself to be a narrowminded jerk in this thread. It doesn’t matter if you’re wrong or right (and no one living has any way of knowing for sure), what matters is how you treat people, and all you’re doing is acting like an arrogant ass and pissing them off, which I don’t think is a very ethical thing to do (you do recognize ethics, don’t you? Or do you not _believe_ in them because they are intangible?) It’s a pleasure to have distinquished SDMBers like **Fenris** , **Mockingbird** and **Zenster** fighting ignorance and his cousin, arrogance, in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Netbrian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71e660/32.png) [@Netbrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Netbrian)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superstition-is-the-enemy-of-all-mankind/174976/52 "2003-05-14T06:03:56Z")
At this point in my life, I am more or less a hard atheist. I don’t really believe in anything supernatural or spiritual. That said, I do my best to respect and tolerate the spiritual aspects of one’s religion. If you believe a ritual represents something, or you have a connection with spirits through prayer or whatever, I believe that’s something personal for you, and not really worth debating over. What does sometimes vex me is when they tend to claim something testably false. For instance, homeopathy and naturopathy tend to get on my nerves as something that actively harms people. Creationism just gets on my nerves regardless. So to reinterate, the spiritualality aspect or social aspect of the religion sits absolutely fine with me, and I do indeed respect it. Things that directly invoke the supernatural in testable ways start getting me to ask questions. I hope this particular position is fairly harmonious with most of the decent religious folk. ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superstition-is-the-enemy-of-all-mankind/174976/53 "2003-05-14T06:06:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Q.E.D. \* > Fine, whatever, I don’t tolerate any belief systems that cannot back themselves up with rudimentary evidence. So, sue me. I believe what I can rationally explain, and that’s it. Period. I’d like to see your rational explanation for being such a rude and ill mannered dickhead. You and I agree pretty much totally agree about science and its predictive worth in modern life. You and I do not agree about how one should go about treating others who may not hold such views. (See **Leaper** ’s recent post.) You do science a complete disservice by defacing it with such intolerance. Any scientist must always be willing to address issues, even those that contain little basis in fact. Yes, it makes it more difficult to debate forensically. Yes, it can be very taxing to do so. But to summarily dismiss other people in such a high-handed manner only discredits your own stance no matter how worthy your fundamental tenets may be. I’d like to congratulate **Fenris** for logically extending such vitriol. I’m glad to say I made my latest posts (and reference to **Polycarp** ) before reading his excellent reapplication of terms. Try to remember that this is a free country whose constitution is blind to when and where a religion was founded. All faiths deserve and must receive equal treatment (an idea that seems to have escaped any notice by the current administration). **Mockingbird** , you are _so_ preaching to the choir (as it were). **Leaper** , excellent question and one that I hope **Rex** and **Q.E.D.** might have the _ostiones_ to address. Extra points for you. **KFL** , back at’cha babe! ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superstition-is-the-enemy-of-all-mankind/174976/54 "2003-05-14T06:34:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blake \* > Oh of course. Men are sleping [sic] with more women than women are with men. Or are we to assume that all thee [sic] women are the victims of rape? Okay, time for this little gem. Yes, **Blake** , more men are sleeping with different women, than women sleeping with different men. It has been this way throughout most (if not all) of recorded history. There are some exceptions to this but they are incredibly rare. Sociologically, women have a lot more to lose by sleeping around (as in\* every-fucking-thing\*). If they are not able to palpably demonstrate that the child they bear (in wedlock or not) has come from one and one man only, then they (and their child) are usually shit out of luck. This is typically rather bad news for the woman’s gene pool and they tend to avoid it like the fucking plague. Even the advent of modern contraception has done little to alter this fundamental feature of the psychosexual landscape. I do not know if it has escaped your notice, but women aren’t exactly clamoring to become prostitutes. Ergo, a fewer number of women have anywhere near the stable of partners as the average philandering male. Since men do not face the extreme burden of pregnancy and childbearing there is less of a penalty (until lately) for sleeping around. It is precisely this lack of disincentive that is manifesting as the massive AIDS epidemic in Africa today. Due to atrocious levels of education and intense superstition (see the OP) the idea that indiscriminately fucking as many women as you can might end up giving you the modern day equivalent of the Black Plague just hasn’t caught on yet. There are areas in Africa that have between **25 and 50%** of their population infected with HIV. This is not due to a gigantic bands of floozies rampaging through villages seducing and raping (as if) every man in sight. Men rampaging through African villages, raping every woman, girl and infant in sight? This happens so regular you can set your watch by it. Men having unprotected sex on a regular basis, both individually and outside of marriage. Hit the old watch stem again, Nimrod. Any questions? ---
**Author:** ![Dragonstar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e79b87/32.png) [@Dragonstar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dragonstar)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superstition-is-the-enemy-of-all-mankind/174976/55 "2003-05-14T06:42:01Z")
One of the other tenets of Wicca is the tenfold law of return; whatever energy you put into the world will return to you multiplied by a factor of ten. ---
**Author:** ![RexDart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superstition-is-the-enemy-of-all-mankind/174976/56 "2003-05-14T06:50:53Z")
I intended to exit this thread, but I’ll go ahead and address a few things, and then try again to bow out. I’m having trouble figuring out what sort of beliefs we are apparently allowed to scorn and which we aren’t. It was my understanding that beliefs which were demonstrably false should be treated as such, and that people holding them should be corrected, and that at best it was a little silly for someone to continue to hold demonstrably false beliefs. I believe basically what NetBrian said in this quote: > [@](#): > > What does sometimes vex me is when they tend to claim something testably false. Supernatural beliefs, as has been rightly pointed out, are generally untestable, if they concern solely the supernatural world. However, anything with an effect on the material world is testable. Thus, if the supernatural world is said to affect the material world, then a testable hypothesis has been created. For instance, if the Catholics claimed that the communion wafer became the _material_ incarnation of Jesus, then we could test the wafer for properties of organic life. AFAIK, they claim only that there is a Real Presence of Jesus in the wafer, but not that the wafer carries the properties of an actual living organic lifeform nor that the wine becomes blood and takes on actual material properties of blood such as hemoglobin and antibodies. More than symbolic, but still not _materialist_. The hypothesis of transsubstantiation is therefore untestable. In that light, it was my understanding of Wicca and paganism that they believed that various rituals or spells produced tangible results in the material world and upon people in the material world. A claim about an affect on the material world creates a testable hypothesis. In that sense, those beliefs are similar to homeopathy and other such things, in that they can be tested. If a ritual is designed to cause a certain effect, we can test whether it does. So, and I repeat this is only to the extent that paganism and/or Wicca may involve such rituals, those claims are just as falsifiable as the claim that you can die from eating Pop Rocks and drinking soda at the same time. The only discernable difference is that one is described by it’s believers as a religious belief, and the other is an urban legend. Both are testable. If the belief in the Pop Rocks legend was central to someone’s beliefs for some reason, would we really hold back on attacking it out of courtesy? I find the belief in a demonstrably false hypothesis, such as the existence of magic which can affect the material world, to be frustrating. Any claims of paganism which do **not** affect the material world in any way whatsoever, that are purely spiritual, those don’t bother me. That said, since there are some people here who were greatly offended by such criticism, for the sake of politeness and expedience I will apologize for the original remarks to the extent they were somewhat inflammatory and rude. My opinion on falsifiable religious claims remains the same, and I won’t lie and say that I don’t find belief in them to be baffling, but I’ll simply agree to never voice my opinion on paganism again on these boards for the sake of politeness. ---
**Author:** ![Netbrian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71e660/32.png) [@Netbrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Netbrian)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superstition-is-the-enemy-of-all-mankind/174976/57 "2003-05-14T06:58:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RexDart \* > \*\* > That said, since there are some people here who were greatly offended by such criticism, for the sake of politeness and expedience I will apologize for the original remarks to the extent they were somewhat inflammatory and rude. My opinion on falsifiable religious claims remains the same, and I won’t lie and say that I don’t find belief in them to be baffling, but I’ll simply agree to never voice my opinion on paganism again on these boards for the sake of politeness. \*\* I’m not sure you have to even go that far. If you restricted your comments from “Paganism is silly” to “crystal healing is silly” or “Beliefs in magic that has tangible, provable results are silly” or “Fortune Telling is silly”, you’d probably be just fine. As long as you don’t generalize from “a sizable subset of Pagans have silly beliefs” to “Pagans have silly beliefs”, I think your position will be a lot more defensible, since you’re arguing things that actually can be fairly conclusively proved. I sort of view it as the difference between the statement “Creationism is silly, so Christians are silly”. Of course, you’ll probably still offend people. But for better reasons. And more people with like-minded beliefs would be inclined to jump to your defense. Or we would remember an important dental appointment. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superstition-is-the-enemy-of-all-mankind/174976/58 "2003-05-14T07:16:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zenster \* > \*\*Okay, time for this little gem. > > Yes, **Blake** , more men are sleeping with different women, than women sleeping with different men. It has been this way throughout most (if not all) of recorded history… > > … Ergo, a fewer number of women have anywhere near the stable of partners as the average philandering male… > > Any questions? \*\* Yes. But I bet you don’t have an answer. If we have a population of say 200 men and 200 women. Now if all the men sleep with the same woman then on average each man has slept with one woman and on average each woman has slept with one man. Conversley if all the women sleep with just one man we have the same situation. On average more men can’t be sleeping with different women than women are with diffeent men. It’s impossible. Yes we can have a situation where a majority men are very, very slightly promiscuous and a minority of women are irresponsibly promiscuous and philandering, or vice versa. But that’s it. If you aren’t saying that most sex is Africa is rape women must be just as responsible for the spread of any STD as are men. Any questions? ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superstition-is-the-enemy-of-all-mankind/174976/59 "2003-05-14T07:48:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dragonstar \* > \*\*One of the other tenets of Wicca is the tenfold law of return; whatever energy you put into the world will return to you multiplied by a factor of ten. \*\* That’s the _three_ fold rule. ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superstition-is-the-enemy-of-all-mankind/174976/60 "2003-05-14T08:15:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blake \* > … On average more men can’t be sleeping with different women than women are with diffeent [sic] men. It’s impossible … How is it impossible for a large group men to sleep with a relatively small subset of promiscuous women who then transmit this disease to even more men? The disease is then also transmitted to many faithful women as a result of their husband’s infidelity and no fault of their own. These women then transmit the virus through non-sexual contact during childbirth. Males constitute more than half of the birthrate and the pattern continues. Although the HIV infected children do not propagate the virus through sexual transmission there is casual transfer of body fluids as well. None of this includes the enormous factor of rape and sexual child abuse. I entirely disagree with your mistaken notion that women are equally responsible for the transmission of HIV in Africa today. Some [excerpts](http://www.antiessays.com/show.php?cat=issues&eid=1726): > [@](#): > > “Women tend to get infected at earlier ages than males for a variety of biological and sociocultural reasons.” I don’t think this is because they’re all sluts. > [@](#): > > “… 12.2 million or 55% of the 22.3 million HIV+ adults in sub-Saharan Africa are female (Altman, 1999a, p. 1). The African HIV gender disparity is particularly dramatic at the younger ages. **In many sub-Saharan African countries, the incidence of HIV infection among girls between the ages of 15 and 19 years old is six to eight times that of their male counterparts (Reuters Health, 1999a, p. 1). A number of social and cultural factors are responsible for this discrepancy, including the _high rates of rape in many African countries_, the low age of sexual initiation among females, and the age disparity between young women and their first male sexual partners who alot of times are middle-aged men seeking virgins as sexual partners to ward off AIDS.**” [sup]EMPHASIS ADDED[/sup] It is the men who are _voluntarily_ spreading HIV. Any questions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superstition-is-the-enemy-of-all-mankind/174976.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/superstition-is-the-enemy-of-all-mankind/174976.md?page=4)