# Supper vs. Dinner **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 15, 2003, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supper-vs-dinner/175379 "2003-05-15T05:35:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![OliverTwistofLime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b487fb/32.png) [@OliverTwistofLime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OliverTwistofLime)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supper-vs-dinner/175379/1 "2003-05-15T05:35:02Z")
I was curious why Leonardo Da Vinci’s portrait of the Last Supper was called Supper vis a vis Dinner…Both words originated from the 13th century…Da Vinci was alive from 1452 to 1519… I believe Supper is the term for the evening meal used commonly in the mid west US while dinner is the term more commonly used elsewhere. Did Da Vinci himself title his famous painting? When I traveled to Italy, generally the term dinner was the term utilized for the evening meal. I would appreciate info regarding the above? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supper-vs-dinner/175379/2 "2003-05-15T06:06:50Z")
First, if Da Vinci gave it a name (which he may not have) he’d have done it in Italian, so the supper/dinner issue of English probably does not apply–especially since, in Italian, the painting is currently known as _il Cenacolo_, “The Upper Room.” In English, lunch is the midday meal, supper is the meal of the late afternoon or evening, and dinner is the largest meal of the day, regardless. The use of dinner for the midday meal usually occurs in farming locales where a large meal was prepared for that time, while people in cities, more bound by clocks and “office hours” tended to have smaller lunches and have their largest meal in the evening. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supper-vs-dinner/175379/3 "2003-05-15T06:12:55Z")
On reviewing my source, it appears that _il Cenacolo_ may refer to the refectory (dining hall) where the fresco was painted, not to the painting itself, although it is still unclear that da Vinci called it by any name. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supper-vs-dinner/175379/4 "2003-05-15T12:54:01Z")
According to the OED, “Dinner” dates from 1297, “Supper” from 1275. “Luncheon” is a latecomer, from 1652, and “lunch” is from 1829 (and was considered vulgar for some time after that). The original English words were Breakfast (1463, so there was probably a different word before that), Dinner, and Supper. Breakfast was the first meal of the day. Dinner was the main meal, usually eaten at midday, and supper was a later, smaller meal. As time went by, it became more common to have a larger meal at the end of the day. In some areas, you had a large supper; in others, since it was the biggest meal, that meal was called dinner. Back in the 60s, the “Breakfast, Dinner, Supper” trio was still common and “lunch” was considered vulgar. “Luncheon” mean a formal midday meal. “Lunch” eventually became the name for a midday meal. Now, the trio is breakfast, lunch, and dinner. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supper-vs-dinner/175379/5 "2003-05-15T13:58:41Z")
> [@](#): > > Back in the 60s, . . . “lunch” was considered vulgar. Among which speakers? I would guess, (from my experience), that “lunch” was well established among most city people–including the upper reaches of society–well before the 1960s. I don’t think I’ve ever encountered a reference to “lunch” as either vulgar or even non-standard. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supper-vs-dinner/175379/6 "2003-05-15T15:15:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RealityChuck \* > \*\*Back in the 60s, the “Breakfast, Dinner, Supper” trio was still common and “lunch” was considered vulgar. “Luncheon” mean a formal midday meal. \*\* I don’t know if I’d use the term “vulgar.” “Lunch rooms” had been around for several decades before the 60s. Lunch was considered to be a light, mid-day meal, that required little preparation, like a sandwich. Dinner was a full, hot meal. ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supper-vs-dinner/175379/7 "2003-05-15T16:13:41Z")
As ‘the Last Supper’ was a key part of the Christian tradition entirely independent of Da Vinci’s painting, I strongly suspect that English speakers simply applied the usual term for that event to the painting. Indeed, Da Vinci doubtless did the same in Italian. And in the sixteenth century English speakers would normally have thought of a meal eaten after sunset as being a ‘supper’. The KJV uses the word in the context of the Biblical event (Luke xxii. 7). As **RealityChuck** ’s post implies, the tendency has been for the names of meals in English to shift over the centuries to later hours in the day. As this process was always uneven, geographical and class variations can still be found. ---
**Author:** ![futureman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3da27b/32.png) [@futureman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/futureman)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supper-vs-dinner/175379/8 "2003-05-15T23:18:44Z")
Da Vinci probably used Cena, or something similar, and that translates into english as either supper or dinner depending on which you prefer. Of course it was referring to a concept that already had a name in English, so the already existing english name was used. ---
**Author:** ![Pelleas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e8c25b/32.png) [@Pelleas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pelleas)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supper-vs-dinner/175379/9 "2003-05-16T01:05:13Z")
When I was growning up in Arkansas in the 40’s and 50’s it was common to refer to the midday meal as dinner and the evening meal as supper. However, some of the better educated and professional people sometimes referred to the evening meal as dinner. Over time, when I go back to visit relatives, I have noticed that more and more people refer to the meals as lunch and dinner. **MadSam** , I was always under the impression that the evening meal was called supper primarily in the South and dinner elsewhere. I could be wrong about that though. ---
**Author:** ![Dancing\_Fool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/59ef9b/32.png) [@Dancing\_Fool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dancing_Fool)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supper-vs-dinner/175379/10 "2003-05-16T03:48:27Z")
Where I grew up, it was breakfast, lunch, dinner, and then supper was a late night (after 9) light meal. Usually only eaten when out at a dance or similar function. I must admit I have always assumed that the “Last Supper” was eaten at night, based purely on this. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supper-vs-dinner/175379/11 "2003-05-16T04:10:18Z")
Where I grew up dinner was in the evening except on Sundays and holidays,when supper was in the evening and dinner was in the early afternoon. It’s not called “Thanksgiving lunch”, even if you serve it at 1pm. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supper-vs-dinner/175379/12 "2003-05-16T06:31:30Z")
Oddly enough, I found some glimmering of this while watching _Manor House_ (or _Edwardian Country House_. For Sir Whatsis and his family, dinner was eaten in the evening and was their grandest meal. Plebian servants were required to “sup” in the evening (have a non-elaborate evening meal), thus they had supper in the evening. Their dinner (best meal) was noon-ish (or afternoon). Thus, for the upper crust of Edwardian England, it was “breakfast, luncheon, and dinner”. For mere servants, it was “breakfast, dinner, and supper”. (I’m not counting teas, elevenses, or other eating events here.) From the American Heritage Dictonary: Breakfast: Middle English brekfast : breken, to break; see break + faste, a fast (from Old Norse fasta, to fast; see past- in Appendix I). Lunch: Contraction from luncheon Luncheon: Probably alteration (influenced by dialectal lunch, hunk of cheese or bread) of obsolete nuncheon, light snack, from Middle English nonshench : none, noon; see noon + schench, drink (from Old English scenc, from scencan, to pour out). Dinner: Middle English diner, morning meal, from Old French disner, diner, to dine, morning meal. See dine. Eating foods such as pizza and ice cream for breakfast may be justified etymologically. In Middle English dinner meant “breakfast,” as did the Old French word disner, or diner, which was the source of our word. The Old French word came from the Vulgar Latin word \*disinre, meaning “to break one’s fast; that is, to eat one’s first meal,” Supper: Middle English, from Old French souper, to sup, supper. See sup (and sup meant “to eat an evening meal”, derived from Middle French for “soup”). ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supper-vs-dinner/175379/13 "2003-05-16T06:39:12Z")
Oddly enough, I found some glimmering of this while watching _Manor House_ (or _Edwardian Country House_. For Sir Whatsis and his family, dinner was eaten in the evening and was their grandest meal. Plebian servants were required to “sup” in the evening (have a non-elaborate evening meal), thus they had supper in the evening. Their dinner (best meal) was noon-ish (or afternoon). Thus, for the upper crust of Edwardian England, it was “breakfast, luncheon, and dinner”. For mere servants, it was “breakfast, dinner, and supper”. (I’m not counting teas, elevenses, or other eating events here.) From the American Heritage Dictonary: Breakfast: Middle English brekfast : breken, to break; see break + faste, a fast (from Old Norse fasta, to fast; see past- in Appendix I). Lunch: Contraction from luncheon Luncheon: Probably alteration (influenced by dialectal lunch, hunk of cheese or bread) of obsolete nuncheon, light snack, from Middle English nonshench : none, noon; see noon + schench, drink (from Old English scenc, from scencan, to pour out). Dinner: Middle English diner, morning meal, from Old French disner, diner, to dine, morning meal. See dine. Eating foods such as pizza and ice cream for breakfast may be justified etymologically. In Middle English dinner meant “breakfast,” as did the Old French word disner, or diner, which was the source of our word. The Old French word came from the Vulgar Latin word \*disinre, meaning “to break one’s fast; that is, to eat one’s first meal,” Supper: Middle English, from Old French souper, to sup, supper. See sup (and sup meant “to eat an evening meal”, derived from Middle French for “soup”). ---
**Author:** ![Rapunzel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/cc9497/32.png) [@Rapunzel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rapunzel)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supper-vs-dinner/175379/14 "2003-05-16T08:16:32Z")
And just to thicken the plot further… In England there is currently a certain strata of upwardly-mobile-foodie-conscious folk who consider ‘dinner parties’ to be so far beyond the pale socially that they no longer have them. What used to be referred to as ‘people who buy their furniture at MFI’ are now ‘people who throw dinner parties’, reeking of Abigail’s Party naffness. Of course, they still have their friends round and feed them. It’s just couched in faux-casual terms such as ‘why not come round for supper, nothing fancy, just at the kitchen table’. Not forgetting also the recent fashion for serving children’s birthday party ‘tea’ food (cup cakes and the like) at ‘supper’ (the meal formerly known as dinner). Not that I want to confuse anyone, or anything. ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supper-vs-dinner/175379/15 "2003-05-16T09:33:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MadSam \* > \*\*When I traveled to Italy, generally the term dinner was the term utilized for the evening meal. I would appreciate info regarding the above? \*\* I’m still waiting for more information about this English-speaking part of Italy. Where is it? ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supper-vs-dinner/175379/16 "2003-05-16T11:26:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by everton \* > \*\*I’m still waiting for more information about this English-speaking part of Italy. Where is it? \*\* Why, in parts of New York, Chicago, and various Massachusetts towns, of course! ---
**Author:** ![Popup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@Popup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Popup)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supper-vs-dinner/175379/17 "2003-05-16T11:50:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by everton \* > \*\*I’m still waiting for more information about this English-speaking part of Italy. Where is it? \*\* Ever been to Venice? English is the first language, closely followed by German. ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supper-vs-dinner/175379/18 "2003-05-16T12:12:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lynn Bodoni \* > \*\*Why, in parts of New York, Chicago, and various Massachusetts towns, of course! \*\* Not to mention Hoboken, NJ? We have Liddle Iddlies over here too of course. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Popup \* > \*\*Ever been to Venice? > English is the first language, closely followed by German. \*\* All joking apart, I used to work with an Italian girl whose first language _was_ German, 'cos she came from South Tyrol and that’s what they speak up there (one of the languages anyway).