I think people are (intentionally?) misunderstanding the difference between personal responsibility and the responsibility of a collective like a democracy. Perhaps its to score points off of me, I really don’t know. I already said I believe citizens of a democracy are responsible for the actions of thier government. That doesn’t mean if our government commits a crime we should all go to collective prison, just that we are responsible for its actions, and responsible to CORRECT its actions when the collective disagrees with the course the government is taking. There is a difference between personal responsibility (i.e. I shoot you with a gun, I’m responsible for my actions), and a collective responsibility for the actions of the government who is doing things in our name (I’ve done at least 2 posts on this topic already btw in this thread). I simply can’t explain it any better than that.
About half way down this page is a post by me on this (i.e. my definition of responsibility as a citizen). If you don’t like my answer, what can I say? Maybe you could tell me what was wrong with my explaination so I don’t have to do it all again? Or conversely we could just agree to disagree and let this subject drop perhaps…
But see, I HAVE told you…over and over again. You just aren’t hearing me. How does a citizen take responsiblity for the actions of his/her government? By being informed and making informed decisions. By voting their consious for the best candidate that represents their views. By holding officials responsible for their (individual, or even collective as in The Administration, The Congress, The Senate, etc) actions, and making sure that OUR government does what WE want it to do. And when it doesn’t, but making our voice felt. See, our government rises and falls on OUR collective will. If we don’t like what Bush has been doing for the last 4 years (for example), then we kick his ass out. Same if we don’t like our states Congressman or Senator.
Someone who isn’t ‘responsible’ is one who DOESN’T remain informed or make informed decisions while voting…or who doesn’t vote at all. Someone who just goes along. So, by MY definition, YOU are (perhaps) a responsible citizen, taking responsibility for your government…even though you don’t think so. Even though you hate the current government and say that YOU aren’t responsible for what it does. Because you (as an example) DO remain informed, you DO vote, you ARE active in making sure the government is doing what you feel is best, and taking actions when you don’t think thats the case. (I’m just using you as an example…I have no idea if you actually do any of that of course).
I’ve said all this before, ad nausium, but its not getting through obviously. So, why continue this discussion on this train of thought? You (and all the others left in the thread besides me) seem to think I’m some kind of hipocrate who doesn’t REALLY believe this, and who is just mouthing platituded and hollow words. Thats fine, its your right. I happen to believe strongly in this stuff. Perhaps I’m wrong, perhaps I’m right. However, having me repeat this stuff over and over again just proves that I think its right. Not that it IS right. No?
Are you saying that you shouldn’t speak your mind and follow your ideals because its hard and people will attack you? lol, no sympathy from me bro. Try being me in this thread. I feel like the proverbial lion being attacked by a pack of hyenas (I mean this in the best possible way).
Um…I didn’t and don’t support the war, unless you are talking about Afghanistan. I think that Iraq was fucking stupid. Where the hell are you getting THAT from if I might ask? And whats that got to do with personal responsibility?? NOt that I don’t appreciate the radical change of direction, and the chance to finally get to answer something I haven’t answered 5 times already this thread, but what the hell are you talking about??
I agree. Its never a cake walk to oppose the majority on something. But it DOES work. And if you work hard enough and stick to your convictions, sometimes your minority view becomes the majority view in time.
IMO, it was a few brave responsible citizens that started the anti-war movement during the Vietnam era. While I might not fully agree with them, I have a hell of a lot of respect for anyone willing to buck the majority for their principals.
Indeed I missed this part, however, your response :
actually isn’t clear. What kind of duty/obligation/burden doest this responsability entails? If it doesn’t entails any actual duty, burden or punishment, saying “I’m responsible” means nothing. It’s just empty words.
No, it’s not intentional. When I say “I’m not responsible”, I’m talking about individual responsability. The kind of responsability which (shoudl) makes you feel guilty and believe that a punishement would be legitimate.
And honestly, I don’t that your definition of collective responsability is really meaningful. You’re stating again “we are responsible for its actions”, but it’s still empty rhetoric if it doesn’t imply any consequences on an individual level.
As for correcting the past “bad” actions of our government, yes, certainly we should, but we should as much correct the actions of other governments. It’s just that (usually) we have (very little) more leverage on our own government, hence it’s a greater failure not to use this leverage. But, if say, Bush were my best pal, I would have more leverage on the US government than on my own, hence my responsability would be more important if I failed to use my influence to correct the american actions than if I failed to try to correct the french actions, despite being a french citizen. One’s responsability depends mainly of one’s actual possibilities, not on one’s citizenship (which really is very rarely a choice). Honestly, it seems to me that your argument rests mainly on rhetorical devices “we are empowered”, “we, the people”, etc…and isn’t very meaningful from a practical point of view.
I understand that. But my point is that the second kind of responsability (collective) is essentially a theorical and empty concept. The only actual consequences I can think of are indemnities paid by our taxes to the victims of our government’s bad actions. Besides that, it’s just words. And as such not really that interesting to debate. What seems important to me is individual responsability. This one only results in you actually feeling responsible. If I feel responsible for something, I’m accepting for instance that I could be rightfully punished for this something (for instance being imprisonned because I didn’t do what I should have to prevent the something to happen) or face other legitimate consequences (for instance being personnally targeted by the ennemy, whether or not I’m a civilian). A responsability which doesn’t have consequences isn’t a responsability in any meaningful sense.
I agree that these are responsabilities we have. But if despite being informed, voting, etc… our government goes on doing “bad things”, then, I believe we aren’t responsible for these actions (or more exactly the responsability of most of us is so tiny as to be mostly irrelevant, because there’s essentially nothing we can do to actually prevent them).
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I happen to believe strongly in this stuff. Perhaps I’m wrong, perhaps I’m right. However, having me repeat this stuff over and over again just proves that I think its right. Not that it IS right. No?
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You might believe it, but I maintain it’s an empty belief. The proof of it is the remark I made in a previous post and to which you didn’t answer. You stated that “those responsible” should be punished. So, you clearly didn’t include yourself in the people who are responsible. It shows first that you clearly understand the difference between what you and me call “responsability”, and second that the “responsability” you’re strongly believe in is a responsability without consequences. Which is meaningless.
Damn, this board is frustrating sometimes. Had a nice long post to reply to clairobscur which was eaten by the hamsters. :(!! I’m on my way to work now, so I’ll try and knock out a reply quick and dirty. Hopefully it will hit the high points.
I suppose you could look at it that way, in the same way people consider voting to be an empty gesture. I don’t look at it that way though, obviously. Its our government. We are responsible for its actions because we empowered it, and what it does it does in our name. Say we turn it around. Lets say its the middle ages and the Pope, in a fit of supidity, makes me a Defender of the Church. Say that I go forth and slaughter countless villages in the name of the Church, without explicit orders. I’ve been empowered by the Church, and am acting in its name, even though they are unaware of my actions, and would perhaps disapprove of them. Is the Church not responsible for what I do in its name? Certainly I’m PERSONALLY responsible and accountable for my individual actions. But does the Church not bare SOME responsibility for my actions as well? I think they DO, just like the citizens do for the actions of THEIR government that is acting in THEIR name.
Its our responsibility to assure that our government does our collective will. When it doesn’t, its our responsibility to hold it accountable to us, and to change it if necessary to ensure it DOES do our collective will. I think those are very real and tangable responsibilities, not just empty words.
I never said you, clairobscur were individually responsible for the individual actions of, say, a French soldier who commits murder (just and example). But let me ask you something about guilt, remorse and punishment. Say that the French government decides to launch a military expedition into, oh, the Sudan (just an example). You voted in the last election, but the current government isn’t the one you voted for. You don’t agree with the current governments decision to go into the Sudan for whatever reasons. Say, during the course of that expedition, French soldiers operating under the legal authority of the French government make a mistake and accidentally wipe out an entire village of women and children.
Now, are you telling me you, as a French citizen, don’t feel guilt and remorse over the actions of the military your government sent there? After all, they sent it there in your name, even if you personally don’t agree it should be there, and didn’t vote for the current government.
As for punishment, that IS less tangable, to be sure for the citizens on an individual basis. Collectively, censure by the world community of France, say, is ultimately censure of the people who voted in the government of France.
So, here in the US, censure of the US President, Congress and Senate (i.e. the US Government is at fault for so and so), is ultimately censure of us, the citizens…as we are responsible for the actions of our government, which is acting in our names. Ok, so its not a horrible punishment…its mere censure (if that). And a lot of folks in the wide world (hell, a lot of folks HERE) don’t make the distinction, actually completely separating the two…i.e. they blame the Government, but basically not the People. For my part, when MY Government is censured (whether its Bush who I didn’t vote for, or Clinton who I did in the first term but not the second), I feel that censure includes myself too, as a participating citizen who empowers our government.
Well, again, you can look at it that way. The same way you can look at voting as being an empty and meanless gesture on an individual basis. After all, my one vote is pretty meaningless in the context of the millions of other votes in my state, and the hundreds of millions in the US a large. However, by voting I implicitely enter into a social contract with my fellow citizens to abide by the will of the majority. Part of that contract is to be vigilant, to not go to sleep and just let the government do as it pleases, to remain informed, to agitate for change if I feel its necessary, and to vote as my consious dictates.
I think that a citizens responsibilities are not meaningless, nor the responsibility we as citizens take on due to the actions of the government that we, as a collective, empower. Its true that on an individual basis there aren’t many consequences to the actions of our government. If thats the basis of responsibilty to you, that there has to be individual, external punishment for the collective (i.e. each member of the collective needs be punished from an external source or responsibility is meaningless and empty words) because of the actions of the government they empower, then I suppose citizens aren’t responsible for anything in your worldview. There simply ARE no external punishments for the collective on an INDIVIDUAL basis.
So, why vote? Why participate at all clairobscur? After all, nothing you do makes a difference, and you aren’t responsible for anything your government does…so why bother? To me, the reasons come from inside, from TAKING responsiblity as an empowered citizen, and from being active in ensuring MY government does what I think it should, and voting my consious on election days. Hollow ‘words’ I suppose if you don’t think this way. But they aren’t hollow to me. This isn’t just retoric for me (though I’ve used retoric to try and make my points)…I believe this, because this was how I was raised. Maybe its because I’m first generation American, having moved here at age 4 from a country that only the wealthy are truely empowered…and the wealthy are a VERY small minority.
Our responsibility as citizens is, when our country does ‘bad things’, to agitate for change, and force the government to acknowledge those ‘bad things’, and hold the individuals responsible for the actions accountable…to us. They work FOR us after all, no?
Again, you get into the ‘you are only responsible if you are punished’ thing. As if you can’t be responsible if you aren’t punished in some way. Hell, if thats the case, then Bush is certainly not responsible either for the Iraq war or anything else he’s done since he’s been in office. He’s not being punished for mistakes made, nor is he likely to be. Oh, he might lose the election, but BFD…thats not a punishment. The US government isn’t going to be punished either for its actions in Iraq (or again, for anything else its done), except by some circumspect censure (if that). Again, BFD…thats not real punishment. By your logic, THEY aren’t responsible then either. Certainly the individual Senators and Congressmen aren’t going to be ‘punished’ for voting for war or whatever. They must not be responsible either, no? The individual soldiers who committed crimes in Iraq?? Certainly THEY will be punished for their individual crimes (as they should be). However, the government that sent them there won’t be punished, and the people who empowered said government won’t be punished. Does that let everyone off the hook?
So, let me ask you clairobscur…who IS responsible then, as it doesn’t appear that anyone except a few individual soldiers (who were only there because our government, acting on our collective authority, sent them there) are going to be punished?