# Support Palestinian guerrillas. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 24, 2002, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/support-palestinian-guerrillas/138413 "2002-11-24T00:42:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/support-palestinian-guerrillas/138413/81 "2002-12-06T03:03:44Z")
**Ex Tank** My information comes from _A History of the Jews_ by Paul Johnson. Regarding ealy support of the UN resolution, he writes: > [@](#): > > Neither the American State Department nor the British Foreign Office wanted a Jewish state. They foresaw disaster for the West in the area if one were created…(US Defense Secretary) James Forrestal bitterly denounced the Jewish lobby: ”No group in this country should be permitted to influence our policy to the point where where it could endanger our national security.”… > > Indeed, if there was a conspiracy to create Israel, the the Soviet Union was a prominent member of it…When Palestine first came before the UN in May, 1947, Andrei Gromyko, the Soviet Deputy Foreign Minister, caused surprise by announcing that his government supported the creation of a Jewish state, and by voting accordingly… > > At the decisive General Assembly vote on 29 November the entire Soviet bloc voted in the Israeli interest… > > Perhaps most significant of all was the decision of the Czech government, on Stalin’s instructions, to sell the new state arms. An entire airfield was assigned to the task of air-lifting weapons to Tel Aviv While discussing the numerous attacks and battles from 1948-1967, Johnson doesn’t discuss arms shipments by the US (or anyone for that matter), other than noting that the Soviet union started arming the Arab states around 1955. As regards US shipments, I misspoke myself earlier when I said the US started shipping arms after the 1967 war. It was the 1973 Yom Kippur war: > [@](#): > > The next day (October 10, 1973), in response to desperate Israeli pleas, the American President, Richard Nixon, began an emergency airlift of advanced weapons. Upon reflection, I have no idea what the status of US arms shipments were prior to this. Johnson doesn’t say we did, but he doesn’t say we didn’t, either…post in haste, repent at leisure. I leave it to my betters to fill in the gaps. Sigh…where’s **Alessan** when you need him/her? ---
**Author:** ![Chumpsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Chumpsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chumpsky)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/support-palestinian-guerrillas/138413/82 "2002-12-06T05:11:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tamerlane \* > \*\*I’ve discussed this with you before, but it is really not that clear-cut. I am simply not in the mood to do this yet again in the umpteenth thread, but you are seriously splitting hairs and being disingenuous in your claims that “Israel has never been attacked since 1948” or that “Six-Day War was a war of aggression”. Even Lebanon is equivocal ( though in truth you have a stronger case there ). Nor is _anybody_ exactly clear on who is responsible for most of the Arab clearances in Israel. _Some_ of it was undoubtedly voluntary, some was not. \*\* The problem here is that you want to re-define words to mean the opposite of their common usage. It is simply a fact that Israel proper has never been attacked since 1948. You can’t dispute that. So, what you do is to try to justify Israel’s aggression, calling it “pre-emptive” and what-not. Now, that in and of itself is fine. You can make an argument that Israel’s aggression was justified. Obviously, I would disagree, but you can make that argument. However, when you say that Israel proper _has_ been attacked, then you enter into the realm of make-believe. ---
**Author:** ![Chumpsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Chumpsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chumpsky)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/support-palestinian-guerrillas/138413/83 "2002-12-06T05:19:08Z")
“Neither Jewish ethics nor Jewish tradition can disqualify terrorism as a means of combat… First and foremost, terrorism is for us a part of the political battle being conducted under the present circumstances, and it has a great part to play…in our war against the occupier.” -former Israeli head of state Yitzhak Shamir, _Hehazit_, 1943; reprinted in _Al-Hamishmar_, Dec. 24, 1987, translated in _Middle East Report_, May-June 1988 ---
**Author:** ![Chumpsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Chumpsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chumpsky)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/support-palestinian-guerrillas/138413/84 "2002-12-06T05:23:25Z")
\*\*ExTank \*\* wrote: **…rag-heads…** **I have nothing racially against people of any ethnic makeup;** **…towel-headed fucks…** ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/support-palestinian-guerrillas/138413/85 "2002-12-06T09:07:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > \*\*It is simply a fact that Israel proper has never been attacked since 1948. You can’t dispute that. \*\* This from the same guy who said that US territory had not been attacked since 1814? Marc ---
**Author:** ![Skip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@Skip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skip)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/support-palestinian-guerrillas/138413/86 "2002-12-06T11:50:46Z")
Chumpsky: _It is simply a fact that Israel proper has never been attacked since 1948. You can’t dispute that._ Yes I can and I’m doing it right now. Please justify how you can claim this. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2002, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/support-palestinian-guerrillas/138413/87 "2002-12-06T14:30:01Z")
**Chumpsky** , I have some questions for you: 1. Do you think Israel has the right to continue to exist? 2. If the Palestinians were given all the land you think they should have (occupied territories i’m assuming), do you seriously think they wouldn’t _still_ try to destroy Israeli"s? 3.What solution would you propose? ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/support-palestinian-guerrillas/138413/88 "2002-12-07T00:31:38Z")
**Chumpsky:** how selective of you. You must have conveniently missed this from the same post: > [@](#): > > **Tamerlane** pretty much nailed it; **Chumpsky** just really pushed my buttons, and hard. The reason you didn’t see it is because _you didn’t want to see it._ You aren’t interested in truth, or honest debate, **Chumpsky.** All you want is to continue spreading anti-Israeli/pro-Palestinian lies to justify your overdeveloped martyr complex. As far as the Six Day War went: surrounding a country with a quarter million troops and over 2,000 tanks can legitimately be seen as an act of agression by any other non-Arab/non-Muslim nation in the world. If Canada and Mexico lined up along the U.S. border with all of their armed forces, and made public statements to the effect that they were going to wipe the U.S.A. off of the map, then we would have every right to launch a pre-emptive attack rather than just sit and wait for them. _Any_ country would. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/support-palestinian-guerrillas/138413/89 "2002-12-07T00:50:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Skip \* > \*\*Yes I can and I’m doing it right now. Please justify how you can claim this. \*\* He’s using the 1948 UN mandate borders. Technically, these have never been violated during war by the opposing Arabs. Soi I suppose that is how he is justifying his delusion. However, he leaves out the shelling of the original Israeli mandate by Syrian forces prior to the Six Day War. That constitutes an attack, **Chumpsky**. ---
**Author:** ![Chumpsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Chumpsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chumpsky)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/support-palestinian-guerrillas/138413/90 "2002-12-07T00:56:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > **1. Do you think Israel has the right to continue to exist?** This is a red herring. Whether or not somebody believes Israel has a right to exist has no bearing on finding a solution to the current problem. And, to tell you the truth, I don’t understand what is meant by the question. Do I think that Israel has right to live in peace within secure and recognized borders? Yes. Do I think that the founding of the state of Israel was concomitant with a monstrous crime committed against the Palestinians? Yes. > [@](#): > > **2. If the Palestinians were given all the land you think they should have (occupied territories i’m assuming), do you seriously think they wouldn’t _still_ try to destroy Israeli"s?** It’s a stupid question. Some might, some might not. Your racist assumptions allow you to treat “the Palestinians” as if they were one homogeneous mass, which is ridiculous. > [@](#): > > \*\*3.What solution would you propose? \*\* I propose that Israel abide by international law, in particular U.N. Security Council resolution 242, which calls for an immediate withdrawal of the territory conquered in the 1967 war. I basically agree with the rest of the world outside of the U.S./Israel that in the short term the best solution is the two-state solution, with the creation of a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, and regional security guarantees for all states in the region. This solution has been on the table since the mid-1970’s, and has consistently been rejected by the U.S./Israel. Well, that isn’t quite true, since they have refused to even consider it. In the end, Israel will only contribute to its own destruction by continuing its brutal occupation of Palestinian land. A monstrous crime committed day in day out cannot lead to any good, especially when there is such a clear solution at hand. Internal decay and demoralization, combined with the growing international opposition will lead, in the end, to Israel’s destruction. This will probably mean the end of life on Earth as well, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/support-palestinian-guerrillas/138413/91 "2002-12-07T01:11:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > \*\*This will probably mean the end of life on Earth as well, by the way. \*\* Ahh…no. No, it won’t. ---
**Author:** ![Chumpsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Chumpsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chumpsky)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/support-palestinian-guerrillas/138413/92 "2002-12-07T01:24:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Darwin’s Finch \* > \*\*Ahh…no. No, it won’t. \*\* Israel has approximately 200 nuclear warheads capable of hitting at least Russia’s major cities. They also have what they call the “Samson option.” You know, if it all goes to shit, they launch those warheads and take the rest of the world down with them. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/support-palestinian-guerrillas/138413/93 "2002-12-07T01:55:21Z")
Really? The Samson option? Evil fucking Jews. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Chumpsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Chumpsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chumpsky)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/support-palestinian-guerrillas/138413/94 "2002-12-07T02:01:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Neurotik \* > \*\*Really? The Samson option? > > Evil fucking Jews. :rolleyes: \*\* Yes, Jews can be evil, just like everybody else. I suppose it was just a matter of time that the old “opposition to Israeli policies” = “anti-semitism” argument was taken down off the shelf, dusted off and thrown into the mix. By the way, I learned about the Samson option by reading such leading anti-Semites as Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn and Norman Finkelstein. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/support-palestinian-guerrillas/138413/95 "2002-12-07T02:24:48Z")
Maybe you should actually try credible sources. The Samson option has never been an Israeli policy. Merely an alleged policy. There is no evidence to support it. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/support-palestinian-guerrillas/138413/96 "2002-12-07T03:31:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > **Israel has approximately 200 nuclear warheads capable of hitting at least Russia’s major cities.** Got a cite for that? Because according to all the info at [FAS.org](http://FAS.org), Israel has between 100 and 200 warheads _total_. They are also believed to have only 50 Jericho 2 missiles, which have the range to reach targets in SW Russia only. [Cite](http://www.cdi.org/issues/nukef&f/database/nukearsenals.cfm#Israel). And, just so you know, the combined nuclear arsenal of the world amounts to about 20,000 warheads ([Cite](http://www.thebulletin.org/issues/nukenotes/nd02nukenote.html)). Even assuming 20 megaton warheads each (which is vastly overestimating the size of the average warhead), the combined megatonnage would be about 400,000 megatons. Compare this to the [**100 million** megaton-equivalent](http://www.innerx.net/personal/tsmith/EarthCollisions.html) asteroid impact at the end of the Cretaceous. You may be interested to learn that said impact did not end life on Earth. ---
**Author:** ![Henry\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/d78d45/32.png) [@Henry\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henry_B)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/support-palestinian-guerrillas/138413/97 "2002-12-07T05:33:52Z")
To the original question: Would I support Palestinian guerillas? Or an Eskimo guerilla, or whatever, in case of attack of their country? In The particular question I see Israel as a state with the UN boarders. Military actions outside that is an attack. The following article from yesterday I have a permission to reprint here fully: > [@](#): > > **Muslim Feast in Gaza Turns to Massacre** > > [PalestineChronicle.com](http://PalestineChronicle.com) Reporter > > NUSSEIRAT REFUGEE CAMP, Gaza Strip (PC) - The Israeli army has reported killed ten Palestinian civilians and wounded scores more in the Buraij refugee camp in Gaza. > > Eyewitnesses told the Palestinian Chronicle that over 50 Israeli armored vehicles invaded the camp, located in the center of the impoverished Gaza Strip, and opened fire on civilian homes. > > “They are killing us, they are killing us,” a Palestinian eyewitnesses told the Chronicle by phone from the outskirts of the camp, while sounds of explosions were heard in the background. > > The eyewitness who requested that his name be withheld, said that the Mosques in the Buraij camp, and the nearby Nusseirat camp called on Palestinians to resist the invading army. > > Scores of panic-stricken civilians took to the streets as Israeli army gunships began systematic bombardments of the small refugee camp. > > While some of the wounded are in serious condition, ten have already been confirmed dead, according to hospital reports. Four of those killed are from the same family. Three others were killed by an Israeli missile fired from a US-made Apache helicopter, eyewitnesses said. One of the victims is reportedly an elderly woman who was shot dead. > > Ahmad Rabah, the head of the Martyrs Hospital in the area said that the Israelis blocked the movement of ambulances, which contributed to the increase in the number of dead. > > The number of wounded has been estimated at 20, of whom five are in serious condition. > > “Over half of those killed could have been saved if the Israeli army allowed them transportation to a hospital,” Rabah said, adding that five of them were left to bleed to death while the residents put up a good fight to save them. > > Scores of homes were damaged by the Israeli attack, and several homes were detonated by army explosives. > > The latest massacre took place while the residents of the camp were celebrating the first day of the Muslim Eid, which follows the holy month of Ramadan. > > Buraij is a crowded camp, with over 20,000 refugees who were driven from their homes in Palestine in 1948. The camp underwent a massacre in the early 1950’s at the hands of an Israeli army unit led by now Israel’s Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon. > > (Palestine Chronicle ([palestinechronicle.com](http://palestinechronicle.com)). Redistributed via Press International News Agency (PINA).) **Answer:** Yes I would give these people, the Palestinians, money for guns, or guns directly. Everyones duty is to defend his/her motherland. **How did Your media cover this?** ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/support-palestinian-guerrillas/138413/98 "2002-12-07T06:08:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Henry B \* > **How did Your media cover this?** [Like this](http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20021206_1927.html). ---
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/support-palestinian-guerrillas/138413/99 "2002-12-07T07:55:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > \*\*This is a red herring. \*\* No, asking for your opinions on the subject is simply that: asking for your opinion. It’s no logical fallacy when the question is explicitly an implied tangent. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/support-palestinian-guerrillas/138413/100 "2002-12-07T21:17:51Z")
Mine were honest questions. You seem to be so against Israel, thinking its committing horrible crimes. What if the Palestinians were given the areas you suggest? What then, would happen if they (some of them) kept attacking Israel? Would you support suppressing them then? Youre just following the party line anyway. Are there any communists who support Israel? No. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/support-palestinian-guerrillas/138413.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/support-palestinian-guerrillas/138413.md?page=6)