# Supporting military action that you are able but not willing to participate in is extremely cowardly **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 20, 2019, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250 "2019-05-20T19:45:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/401 "2019-05-30T14:24:50Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I’m just trying to point out to you that it’s outrageous to expect people to sacrifice and support the military if they support a war but you have no obligation to sacrifice and stop helping the military when you oppose a war. You are directly helping people get killed but shaming some random yahoo is more important. I think this would be a very interesting thing to talk about, and I don’t exempt myself from any obligation (nor from possible hypocrisy and cowardice), and I’d be happy to take part in another thread. I don’t think my service is particularly admirable or brave in any way at all. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/402 "2019-05-30T14:49:35Z")
I’m not sure it’s worth another thread because I can’t imagine there’s a lot of anti-war military employees who expect civilians to sign up if they support military action. Can you just explain why it doesn’t logically follow that if supporting military action behooves joining the war effort then opposing military action behooves leaving the war effort. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/403 "2019-05-30T15:01:23Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I’m not sure it’s worth another thread because I can’t imagine there’s a lot of anti-war military employees who expect civilians to sign up if they support military action. Can you just explain why it doesn’t logically follow that if supporting military action behooves joining the war effort then opposing military action behooves leaving the war effort. The difference is in asking and expecting others to make strong sacrifices and risks to life and limb. I’m not asking anyone to risk their life in any way. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/404 "2019-05-30T15:11:12Z")
You’re asking them to do something they volunteered for. Even anti war members like you happily work away at optional wars. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/405 "2019-05-30T15:14:03Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > You’re asking them to do something they volunteered for. Even anti war members like you happily work away at optional wars. I’m not asking them to do anything. And I don’t think it matters that they volunteered. It’s still wrong to advocate they risk their lives for something stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/406 "2019-05-30T16:03:08Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No problem – I’m using “warmongering” as a shorthand for pushing for wars (including “small” wars typically labeled as military actions or operations) of choice, akin to the most recent Iraq war, or proposals to start a war with Iran. How about intervening in Syria to stop a humanitarian catastrophe? The problem I see with this approach is that many people are going to disagree on where the line between warmongering and legitimate use of force lies. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/407 "2019-05-30T16:06:33Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > How about intervening in Syria to stop a humanitarian catastrophe? The problem I see with this approach is that many people are going to disagree on where the line between warmongering and legitimate use of force lies. Yes, obviously there will be frequent disagreement where the line should be drawn. Which happens on many other issues. I only advocate for social shaming as a potentially useful tactic because our society is so tolerant of war, and I see the risks of this tactic as far lower than the risks of getting into more unnecessary wars. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/408 "2019-05-30T16:22:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m not asking them to do anything. And I don’t think it matters that they volunteered. It’s still wrong to advocate they risk their lives for something stupid. So asking someone to do the job they volunteered for is worse than actively participating in a war you are morally opposed to. Always amazed at the twists of logic people go through when they don’t want to give up their paycheck. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/409 "2019-05-30T16:23:45Z")
How about exercising your moral judgment as to whether a given military action is just or unjust, and then advocating for or against it based on that? That would seem to be a better idea than simply name-calling. I grant you, name-calling is easier. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/410 "2019-05-30T16:26:38Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > So asking someone to do the job they volunteered for is worse than actively participating in a war you are morally opposed to. Always amazed at the twists of logic people go through when they don’t want to give up their paycheck. This appears to be a straw man, since I’ve never defended “actively participating in a war you are morally opposed to”, much less compared it to what I’ve been critical of. I don’t believe I’ve said anything at all about it. But rather than all these digressions and straw men, why not start a thread on the subject, since you seem so interested in it? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/411 "2019-05-30T16:27:39Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > How about exercising your moral judgment as to whether a given military action is just or unjust, and then advocating for or against it based on that? Sounds good to me. I favor any and every rhetorical approach that might have some impact. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/412 "2019-05-30T16:29:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This appears to be a straw man, since I’ve never defended “actively participating in a war you are morally opposed to”, much less compared it to what I’ve been critical of. I don’t believe I’ve said anything at all about it. > > But rather than all these digressions and straw men, why not start a thread on the subject, since you seem so interested in it? You didn’t say it, you do it. You are an active military employee aiding the war effort during wars you find immoral. It’s not a strawman, it’s you. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/413 "2019-05-30T16:31:19Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > You didn’t say it, you do it. You are an active military employee aiding the war effort during wars you find immoral. Actually, my current position has no effect on “the war effort” for current engagements. But I’d be happy to discuss my feelings on the subject if you start a thread on it. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/414 "2019-05-30T16:37:41Z")
Ok, on the subject of this thread: if I supported an optional war and didn’t want to be called a coward, would switching careers and doing your job get me in the clear? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/415 "2019-05-30T16:43:24Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Ok, on the subject of this thread: if I supported an optional war and didn’t want to be called a coward, would switching careers and doing your job get me in the clear? Not in my opinion. My job isn’t much of a sacrifice, for one thing. It’s certainly not a risk – I don’t risk anything at all. And as I mentioned, it doesn’t contribute to ongoing war efforts. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/416 "2019-05-30T16:49:29Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > And as I mentioned, it doesn’t contribute to ongoing war efforts. That’s a pretty weak argument, and not everyone agrees with your assessment. They may feel empowered to call you a hypocrite. Frankly, they’d have exactly the same moral standing as you have for calling someone who supports using the military in ways you don’t like a coward. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/417 "2019-05-30T16:49:58Z")
In other words, its not your fault, you’re only the mob accountant. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/418 "2019-05-30T16:59:35Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > That’s a pretty weak argument, and not everyone agrees with your assessment. They may feel empowered to call you a hypocrite. Frankly, they’d have exactly the same moral standing as you have for calling someone who supports using the military in ways you don’t like a coward. Well, except for the fact that one would be advocating that we spend our treasure to put our people’s lives in danger in an effort to destroy infrastructure and kill other people until they give in to our demands, and the other would be advocating that we do not. Other than that, exactly the same. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/419 "2019-05-30T17:01:26Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > That’s a pretty weak argument, and not everyone agrees with your assessment. They may feel empowered to call you a hypocrite. Frankly, they’d have exactly the same moral standing as you have for calling someone who supports using the military in ways you don’t like a coward. I welcome criticism, and welcome assessments of my personal qualities. I want to be a better person, and considering criticism is a big part of that. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2019, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/420 "2019-05-30T17:02:27Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > In other words, its not your fault, you’re only the mob accountant. No, but perhaps you should start a Pit thread, since your last several posts seem to consist of ways to craft personal digs at me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250.md?page=22)