# Supporting military action that you are able but not willing to participate in is extremely cowardly **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 20, 2019, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250 "2019-05-20T19:45:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2019, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/481 "2019-05-31T16:26:53Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > You would agree that there’s a range of military actions that range from necessary to unnecessary, correct? If Canada starts genocidal killing of all its French speakers, I believe we’d all be pretty appalled. I would support expelling Canada from NATO and then the remaining NATO nations, including the US and UK, banding together to stop the genocide through military action. Going to the other extreme, I would oppose a US invasion to take over the Alberta oil fields. Military action supporting the Syrian rebellion against the Assad regime is going to fall somewhere in the middle. Building international coalitions is a way to show that a war is necessary and has support. If a country is willing to send its men in to danger, then it can be inferred that that country is making a good faith sacrifice in order to prevent what it sees as unacceptable actions of a sovereign nation. > [@](#): > > Suppose a young, able-bodied person is opposed to the hypothetical Canadian genocide, but feels they have no military aptitude. Should they be allowed to oppose it without being subject to social shaming, or not? Do they have nothing at all to sacrifice to assist in the war that they want? > [@](#): > > Now move to the military action in Syria. Assad used chemical weapons against his own people, including children. Pretty horrific right? Is it okay to support airstrikes to discourage chemical weapons attacks? Part of the rebellion against Assad came from the Kurds, who are allies of the US. The US conducted military actions in support of the Kurds, including air strikes and on-the-ground support. Is it okay to support backing up US allies in opposition to a murderous regime? Increase the level of military action and support and you’re going to reach a point where I think the US use of military force would be going too far. I think that the more we stir the pot, the more problems we cause, and the worse things get. If someone thinks that we should be firing (very expensive) missiles at infrastructure and people on the other side of the world, and they think that their only obligation is to stand up for the anthem, then they are willing to spend our treasury and ask our people to risk their lives in order to bring harm to others, but not willing to do anything themselves? That’s pretty shitty. > [@](#): > > I don’t think a full-scale US invasion of Syria could be successful and would oppose that. However, other people might think that Assad is so evil that the invasion is justified. I think those people are entitled to their opinions, and should have the opportunity to express them without being shamed, just the same as I think someone supporting military intervention against genocide is entitled to their opinion. Ultimately I want everyone discussing and considering the potential outcomes and costs of military action and deciding if the desired outcome is achievable and probable, and if it’s worth the cost. Shaming people into not expressing their opinions by branding them as gutless cowards prevents that discussion. I think that part of the problem here is that we are just so used to the idea of others going off and sacrificing themselves so that we can sit on our couches and eat bonbons is so ingrained that it has become normalized. Wars of choice are _entertainment_ to us now. We sit and we watch as the smart bomb hits its target, and we applaud and cheer the bravery of our men and the power of our innovations, and then we grab another handful of cheetos. That the very idea that asking people to be held accountable for their advocacy to send others into war gets such push back, such an anathema to the culture that we have developed tells me that it is not the size or the readiness of our military that gets us involved in wars, but the detachment and the apathy of the american public. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2019, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/482 "2019-05-31T16:27:05Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Lol, yeah that’s relevant. You really think the military could be as big as it was if people like you actually stood by their principles? If everyone who thought “I want to defend my country but I don’t want to be in optional wars” merely waited for the country to be threatened before they joined the military, don’t you think that would have an effect? Possibly. Sounds like it might be worth a thread, if you’re interested in actual discussion rather than just points scoring or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2019, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/483 "2019-05-31T16:30:23Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > So, the ability to beat the living shit out of almost any country in the world is a good thing, world peace-wise. And the fact that the U.S. does indeed occasionally beat the living shit out of countries is a completely disconnected fact for you. OK. Thank you for insightful wisdom. I know people with advanced degrees in martial arts. They can beat the shit out of 99% of the population. Having one as a bouncer means less violence, not more. The fact that they occasionally have to engage in violence is not due to their skills, but due to the nature of the job. If there is someone with less skills, then more people usually end up getting hurt in order to keep things peaceful. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2019, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/484 "2019-05-31T16:37:51Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I know people with advanced degrees in martial arts. They can beat the shit out of 99% of the population. Having one as a bouncer means less violence, not more. The fact that they occasionally have to engage in violence is not due to their skills, but due to the nature of the job. If there is someone with less skills, then more people usually end up getting hurt in order to keep things peaceful. Bull-fucking-shit. I have trouble even believing this is a real life anecdote. I have taken martial arts, met others who have and have seen bouncers who have that as a hobby. In no fucking way do I trust a guy who takes martial arts to be sparing in his use of those skills. Some do but others definitely do not and in fact take bouncing jobs so they can “practice real world”. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2019, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/485 "2019-05-31T16:45:19Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Possibly. Sounds like it might be worth a thread, if you’re interested in actual discussion rather than just points scoring or whatever. Cute. The whole point of this thread is your awesome strategy to score points on the warmongers but we wouldn’t want to dilute that with my point scoring on your attitude. ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2019, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/486 "2019-05-31T17:05:08Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Do they have nothing at all to sacrifice to assist in the war that they want? What would you suggest? That they go around virtue-signalling about volunteering in the VA to avoid some stranger labelling them a gutless coward? “I support this military action and I am entitled to support this military action because I donated £100 to Help for Heroes.”? > [@](#): > > That the very idea that asking people to be held accountable for their advocacy to send others into war gets such push back, such an anathema to the culture that we have developed tells me that it is not the size or the readiness of our military that gets us involved in wars, but the detachment and the apathy of the american public. I agree that the American government does not do enough to inform the public about the military actions the US is involved in, the goals of those actions, whether those goals are being achieved, and the costs and consequences of those actions. I also think there’s not enough Congressional debate and oversight. There should be a collective responsibility of the entire nation towards military actions, and the aftermath of those actions. So yes, detachment and apathy are problems. However, I doubt you’re going to solve that problem by going around calling people gutless cowards. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2019, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/487 "2019-05-31T17:13:09Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Cute. The whole point of this thread is your awesome strategy to score points on the warmongers but we wouldn’t want to dilute that with my point scoring on your attitude. I will be here, ready for actual discussion, if you decide you’re interested enough to start a thread about it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2019, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/488 "2019-05-31T17:22:07Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Bull-fucking-shit. I have trouble even believing this is a real life anecdote. I have taken martial arts, met others who have and have seen bouncers who have that as a hobby. In no fucking way do I trust a guy who takes martial arts to be sparing in his use of those skills. Some do but others definitely do not and in fact take bouncing jobs so they can “practice real world”. Maybe you just don’t hang out with very responsible people. Yeah, I know some people who are good at hurting people who enjoy hurting people, and I don’t spend much time with those sort, but there are those who actually take the shit seriously. If you say you know people who don’t use their skills responsibly, I won’t call you a liar. The fact that you call me a liar because I do know people that use their skills responsibly only speaks to the company you keep and the way that it colors your perceptions of others. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2019, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/489 "2019-05-31T17:23:45Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > What would you suggest? That they go around virtue-signalling about volunteering in the VA to avoid some stranger labelling them a gutless coward? “I support this military action and I am entitled to support this military action because I donated £100 to Help for Heroes.”? There have been numerous options discussed in this thread. Are you asking for a recap, or did you actually miss them? > [@](#): > > I agree that the American government does not do enough to inform the public about the military actions the US is involved in, the goals of those actions, whether those goals are being achieved, and the costs and consequences of those actions. I also think there’s not enough Congressional debate and oversight. There should be a collective responsibility of the entire nation towards military actions, and the aftermath of those actions. So yes, detachment and apathy are problems. You have any suggestions? > [@](#): > > However, I doubt you’re going to solve that problem by going around calling people gutless cowards. I agree. ---
**Author:** ![CAH66](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7bcc69/32.png) [@CAH66](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CAH66)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2019, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/490 "2019-05-31T19:37:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Social shaming has certainly been used for evil in the past. I’m in favor of social shaming for actual bad things (i.e. child molestation, warmongering), and against it being used for things that aren’t bad. > > This really just comes down to people’s feelings about warmongering. I think it’s really, really awful and highly damaging to society. You and some other folks, apparently, do not. That’s the source of our disagreement. Unless you think it’s wrong to shame child molesters, then it’s not about social shaming – we all appear to agree that social shaming is appropriate in some instances. It’s just about whether warmongering qualifies. No, there are multiple points of disagreement here. First among them is the idea that _YOU_ get to decide what constitutes warmongering. Second is the idea that once you have so decreed, you are justified in attacking the character of a segment of the population without any actual insight into that character, based only on an arbitrary criteria of being military or some vague notion of what constitutes “substantial sacrifice.” (And you still haven’t addressed the problem of numbers or what kind of things you think half the population could do to fulfill your criteria either.) Finally, I take issue with the notion that there’s no difference between the emergent phenomena of social shaming that naturally arises when a large or overwhelming majority of the population holds an opinion (as in your child molestation example), and a campaign to wilfully organize and institute public shaming as a weapon to effect a particular policy goal. While the first is simply a by-product of society itself, the second is nothing more than maliciously hurtful manipulation that you attempt to justify merely by the ends you hope to achieve. Its callous disregard for the harm it does to the individuals it targets, coupled with the further stifling of public debate by substituting personal attack for any discussion based on merits makes this tactic borderline sociopathic. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2019, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/491 "2019-05-31T20:17:01Z")
> [@CAH66](#): > > No, there are multiple points of disagreement here. First among them is the idea that _YOU_ get to decide what constitutes warmongering. As much as I might like to be all-powerful, I don’t actually believe that anyone should do something just because I say so. > [@](#): > > Second is the idea that once you have so decreed, you are justified in attacking the character of a segment of the population without any actual insight into that character, based only on an arbitrary criteria of being military or some vague notion of what constitutes “substantial sacrifice.” (And you still haven’t addressed the problem of numbers or what kind of things you think half the population could do to fulfill your criteria either.) I would generally go on a case-by-case basis, and the thrust of this thread has been about personal interactions, not insults directed at broad swaths of strangers. More like in one’s day to day life, if they come across these cowardly (in my view) attitudes, then I’m advocating that they call them out. > [@](#): > > Finally, I take issue with the notion that there’s no difference between the emergent phenomena of social shaming that naturally arises when a large or overwhelming majority of the population holds an opinion (as in your child molestation example), and a campaign to wilfully organize and institute public shaming as a weapon to effect a particular policy goal. While the first is simply a by-product of society itself, the second is nothing more than maliciously hurtful manipulation that you attempt to justify merely by the ends you hope to achieve. This is a thoughtful and reasonable criticism and I thank you for offering it. > [@](#): > > Its callous disregard for the harm it does to the individuals it targets, coupled with the further stifling of public debate by substituting personal attack for any discussion based on merits makes this tactic borderline sociopathic. This seems like hyperbole, but thank you nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2019, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/492 "2019-05-31T21:05:50Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > There have been numerous options discussed in this thread. Are you asking for a recap, or did you actually miss them? A recap please. The two categories of suggestions I noticed were supporting veterans and monetary payments. Both of which I referenced. The underlying question, which I guess I needed to make more explicit, is should the people making the alternate sacrifices, or for that matter, the people in the military, parade their sacrifices/service? I’m curious about the determination process of deciding if someone is a gutless coward or not. Does a member of the military need to state their profession before stating support for a military action? Is a nephew in the military sufficient to be in favour of a military action without being called a gutless coward? Is a 1% of income donation to a military cause sufficient, or does it need to be 10%? Will the shamer be asking the hawk a polite checklist of questions before determining if he’s a gutless coward or not? (BTW, these questions are directed at the debaters on side with the OP’s argument, not you specifically.) > [@](#): > > You have any suggestions? None good I’m afraid. My ideal suggestion is to elect leaders who believe in accountability. Unfortunately, I believe that’s as difficult as hell. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2019, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/493 "2019-05-31T21:44:44Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > A recap please. The two categories of suggestions I noticed were supporting veterans and monetary payments. Both of which I referenced. Was this your “reference?” > [@](#): > > That they go around virtue-signalling about volunteering in the VA to avoid some stranger labelling them a gutless coward? “I support this military action and I am entitled to support this military action because I donated £100 to Help for Heroes.”? If so, then that is not a reference, that is being petty about it. Why would you choose to call it virtue signaling? No, virtue signaling is making a big deal about getting pissy at someone for not standing for the anthem. Helping out returning vets that are injured by the wars that we chose to enter is actually helping. Paying a higher tax that actually pays for the costs associated with war is actually helping. Your “referenced” examples were caricatures of what is being spoken in this thread. If that is what you actually think that we are talking about, then no wonder you are confused. But I have no idea where you would be coming from talking shit about people who are actually willing to support our troops in real ways as opposed to the “virtue signalling” of putting a “I support our troops” sticker on your gas guzzling SUV. If you really think that that sort of thing is virtue signalling, while interrupting a service member at dinner to say “Thank you for your service” is patriotic, then we are far to far apart to ever come to any sort of agreement or consensus on this, or really any topic. > [@](#): > > The underlying question, which I guess I needed to make more explicit, is should the people making the alternate sacrifices, or for that matter, the people in the military, parade their sacrifices/service? I’m curious about the determination process of deciding if someone is a gutless coward or not. Does a member of the military need to state their profession before stating support for a military action? Is a nephew in the military sufficient to be in favour of a military action without being called a gutless coward? Is a 1% of income donation to a military cause sufficient, or does it need to be 10%? Will the shamer be asking the hawk a polite checklist of questions before determining if he’s a gutless coward or not? (BTW, these questions are directed at the debaters on side with the OP’s argument, not you specifically.) If you need to quantify your patriotism, then you are not a patriot. These questions are pretty much irrelevant to anyone who is actually looking to decrease the number of wars of choice we engage in. > [@](#): > > None good I’m afraid. My ideal suggestion is to elect leaders who believe in accountability. Unfortunately, I believe that’s as difficult as hell. Of course it is, as they are elected by people who are apathetic and disengaged from the wars we are fighting. If you wish to elect better leaders, but don’t do so by starting with the people, then you are just wishing, and as long as you are wishing, could you wish me up a pony too? ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2019, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/494 "2019-05-31T22:52:15Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > No, virtue signaling is making a big deal about getting pissy at someone for not standing for the anthem. Helping out returning vets that are injured by the wars that we chose to enter is actually helping. Paying a higher tax that actually pays for the costs associated with war is actually helping. Your “referenced” examples were caricatures of what is being spoken in this thread. If that is what you actually think that we are talking about, then no wonder you are confused. But I have no idea where you would be coming from talking shit about people who are actually willing to support our troops in real ways as opposed to the “virtue signalling” of putting a “I support our troops” sticker on your gas guzzling SUV. Virtue signalling is performing a positive act, and then promoting yourself for performing that positive act. I don’t automatically decry the self-promotion, but I do have kneejerk scepticism towards it. I have much more respect for a Habitat for Humanity volunteer that shows up 50 weekend days a year, than a politician that shows up for two hours to gets his picture taken holding a hammer. I admire someone who volunteers to help injured veterans. I don’t mind if they want to promote themselves, to virtue signal, if their volunteerism is sincere. But my admiration is slightly higher for the people who do the volunteering and go modestly about their way. What I object to is the idea that the modest volunteers need to do the self-promotion, or face being called gutless cowards. Also, going back to my original objection to the OP’s premise, why is someone who volunteers to support injured veterans more virtuous than someone who wants to build housing for the poor? More so, why should someone who is good at building houses, but poor at nursing wounded people, be forced into the latter because they want to express an opinion about US military actions? Regarding increasing the tax burden to pay for military interventions, I think that’s a sound idea. If a full-scale invasion of Iran is likely to cost 3.7 trillion dollars, I think the American people should know that they’re signing up for a per-person average cost of $10,000 to support the invasion. That’s part of the collective responsibility that I do support. > [@](#): > > as you are wishing, could you wish me up a pony too? I wish for you a pony. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2019, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/495 "2019-06-01T01:15:15Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Maybe you just don’t hang out with very responsible people. Yeah, I know some people who are good at hurting people who enjoy hurting people, and I don’t spend much time with those sort, but there are those who actually take the shit seriously. > > If you say you know people who don’t use their skills responsibly, I won’t call you a liar. The fact that you call me a liar because I do know people that use their skills responsibly only speaks to the company you keep and the way that it colors your perceptions of others. I’m not calling you a liar, I’m saying it’s massive bullshit to extrapolate from some honorable martial artists you know that we should trust random people trained in violence to be wise in their violence usage. My doubting the reality is only in that if you’ve met a few martial arts trained people, I have a hard time believing you didn’t meet a few assholes you are forgetting to mention. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2019, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/496 "2019-06-01T15:25:32Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > Virtue signalling is performing a positive act, and then promoting yourself for performing that positive act. I don’t automatically decry the self-promotion, but I do have kneejerk scepticism towards it. I have much more respect for a Habitat for Humanity volunteer that shows up 50 weekend days a year, than a politician that shows up for two hours to gets his picture taken holding a hammer. I admire someone who volunteers to help injured veterans. I don’t mind if they want to promote themselves, to virtue signal, if their volunteerism is sincere. But my admiration is slightly higher for the people who do the volunteering and go modestly about their way. What I object to is the idea that the modest volunteers need to do the self-promotion, or face being called gutless cowards. Maybe we operate under slightly different definitions. I see virtue signalling as performing a positive act specifically for the purpose of being seen performing that act. Like your politician example. You know what you do to help out in society, and that’s what’s important. I don’t see it so much as needing to do self promotion, or be called a gutless coward, but that it is said that if you do not sacrifice something of your own while asking others to make a sacrifice, then you can make your own judgement as to whether or not you are doing enough. Small groups or friends, where one says, “Yeah, go kick those [ethnic slur]'s ass!”, and the reply from a friend being, “And what are you willing to sacrifice for that war?” The idea, in my mind, at least, is less to call out people, and more to make them think. Less to shame them in public, and more give their friends and acquaintances the tools to shame them in private. If someone is set back by this, then they may think, “Hey, I am asking others to sacrifice, so I should step up my game and contribute something of my own.” Or, even better, IMHO, is, “Hey, that is quite the sacrifice that I am asking people to make, more than I am willing to make myself, maybe I will rethink my support for this war.” Public figures and politicians can, IMHO, be called out in public. Their record on what they have done and what they call for is out there for all to see, and they put themselves into the spotlight to be judged and criticized. > [@](#): > > Also, going back to my original objection to the OP’s premise, why is someone who volunteers to support injured veterans more virtuous than someone who wants to build housing for the poor? More so, why should someone who is good at building houses, but poor at nursing wounded people, be forced into the latter because they want to express an opinion about US military actions? 9% of the homeless are veterans, and wars of choice are probably not going to help that figure. > [@](#): > > Regarding increasing the tax burden to pay for military interventions, I think that’s a sound idea. If a full-scale invasion of Iran is likely to cost 3.7 trillion dollars, I think the American people should know that they’re signing up for a per-person average cost of $10,000 to support the invasion. That’s part of the collective responsibility that I do support. Maybe we should start a thread on “How to discourage public support for unnecessary wars of choice.” > [@](#): > > I wish for you a pony. And I’ll get my pretty pink princess pony (pony pony pony) about the same time as we get world peace. [quote=“CarnalK, post:495, topic:834250”] I’m not calling you a liar, I’m saying it’s massive bullshit to extrapolate from some honorable martial artists you know that we should trust random people trained in violence to be wise in their violence usage. I’ll happily admit to selection bias. I worked my way through it seems half the bars in Cincinnati while trying to pay for college. (Never as a bartender, I was still too socially anxious for that, but as the best bar back any of them had ever had). I got passed around by word of mouth, and mostly dealt with the better run ones. As for this, it was not me forgetting to mention, as I did, indeed, mention. > [@](#): > > My doubting the reality is only in that if you’ve met a few martial arts trained people, I have a hard time believing you didn’t meet a few assholes you are forgetting to mention. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Yeah, I know some people who are good at hurting people who enjoy hurting people, and I don’t spend much time with those sort, I am not extrapolating anything, I am saying specifically that a bouncer who can perpetuate violence effective but restrains that violence is far more effective than a bouncer who uses violence irresponsibly, no matter the skill. Like it or not, the US has been the bouncer for Club Earth since WWII. On the whole, I’d say we did more good than harm, but we certainly have done some harm. This proposed invasion of Iran would be solidly in the harm column, IMHO. We are becoming less effective and more irresponsible with our use of force. I’m not saying that the US is a great bouncer, and I fear that we are becoming a worse bouncer. My point in all of this is that we should be _that_ bouncer. That should be our ideal. So, it seems as though you have answered your question, that of why someone who is anti-unnecessary war should join the military apparatus. When you are talking about sparing violence, if you want utilities to be restrained, who would you rather have involved in the military apparatus, Edward Gallagher or iiandyiiii? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2019, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/497 "2019-06-01T21:26:31Z")
Since I assume iiandyiii will follow orders like a good boy, it matters little to me that we have an antiwar cog in the machine that effectively functions like any other cog. I remain rather strongly of the opinion that an antiwar person working for the U.S. military is not letting his morals get in the way of a paycheck. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2019, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/498 "2019-06-01T21:41:42Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Since I assume iiandyiii will follow orders like a good boy, it matters little to me that we have an antiwar cog in the machine that effectively functions like any other cog. I remain rather strongly of the opinion that an antiwar person working for the U.S. military is not letting his morals get in the way of a paycheck. You really are of the opinion that there is no discernable difference between Edward Gallagher or iiandyiiii in the way they would carry out a mission? And, once again, it does come down to civilian leadership. If we have a warmongering public that elects warmongering leaders, we will be at war more often than if we have a more reserved public that elects more reserved leaders. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2019, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/499 "2019-06-01T22:08:36Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Since I assume iiandyiii will follow orders like a good boy, it matters little to me that we have an antiwar cog in the machine that effectively functions like any other cog. I remain rather strongly of the opinion that an antiwar person working for the U.S. military is not letting his morals get in the way of a paycheck. Another Doper mind-reader! I commend you for your special powers. I hope you use them for good and not evil. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2019, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/500 "2019-06-01T22:32:12Z")
I don’t need to read your mind, I’m reading your actions and words. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250.md?page=26)