# Supporting military action that you are able but not willing to participate in is extremely cowardly **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 20, 2019, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250 "2019-05-20T19:45:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2019, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/521 "2019-06-02T22:49:48Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > Yes And where did I say _anything_ about justification? My point was that you were claiming that the goal was to humiliate people. The goal is to reduce support for unnecessary wars. Just because I said “means towards an ends” does not have anything to do with justification of evil, or even justifying it at all. Just clarifying that that is not the goal, as you were insisting it was. A screw is a tool, a means to an end to hold a piece of drywall to a stud. If it is an evil screw, it is not justified by its job. But the fact that it has a job to do does not make it evil. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2019, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/522 "2019-06-02T22:54:14Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What assumptions do you think I’m making? You’re the one accusing me of fantastical leaps of intuition and mind reading, why don’t you tell me what those are first? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2019, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/523 "2019-06-02T23:34:15Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > Thanks for the further concession. It was obvious from post #12 that you’d lost the debate, but I thought it was an interesting subject, so was happy to continue it. > > You’re granting an exception to someone outside of the scope of your OP and pretending it’s an expansion covered within the statements of the original OP. It’s not. Ahh, I was unaware of rules like this. I thought I was just a guy laying out an idea, and then expanding my thoughts when some other things were brought up. You know, kind of like a discussion – an exchange of ideas and thoughts. But if these are the rules, then congratulations once again! > [@](#): > > Let’s be clear. A teacher who’s physically capable of joining the army supports a military action that you think is unnecessary. That same teacher supports youth charities with their time and effort. They accept the premise that a US government decision to support a military action requires collective responsibility for all US citizens, and is willing to accept their portion of the collective cost, but thinks their current contribution to society doesn’t require any further personal sacrifice. Are you willing to front up to that hypothetical teacher and call them a gutless coward to their face? I highly doubt you’d ever do so. And even if you did so, I fervently believe you’d be wrong. I’d certainly consider situations like this on a case-by-case basis, as I said as early as post #22. > [@](#): > > The above scenario stacks the argument in my favour. The scenario with the person eating bon-bons on the couch going “War Yeah!” does the same thing, just from the opposite perspective. Your basic argument is that you want society to consider hawkishness to be equivalent to being in favour of child sex. You don’t actually state where the limits of this hawkishness should be, but state “you are a gutless coward (even if the military action really is necessary!)”. I reject your statement. Citizens should have the right to debate government policy, including military policy, freely without being subject to intimidation. Thank you for your thoughts! I agree with your last sentence. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2019, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/524 "2019-06-02T23:36:46Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > You’re the one accusing me of fantastical leaps of intuition and mind reading, why don’t you tell me what those are first? I humbly withdraw any such accusations. If you think I’m making assumptions, I’m interested in learning what those are. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2019, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/525 "2019-06-02T23:43:33Z")
What I said was that I’m not making any more assumptions than you. I made some rather reasonable assumptions based on the words you said and the rather realistic assumption that you aren’t quitting your job because you’ve been convinced by my argument. Are you saying you’ve made no, absolutely zero, assumptions whatsoever about the gutless cowards you want to shame? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2019, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/526 "2019-06-02T23:49:53Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > What I said was that I’m not making any more assumptions than you. I made some rather reasonable assumptions based on the words you said and the rather realistic assumption that you aren’t quitting your job because you’ve been convinced by my argument. I wasn’t aware you were making this argument. Are you saying that it’s hypocritical for someone who opposes unnecessary wars of choice to work for the US military as a civilian or on active duty? > [@](#): > > Are you saying you’ve made no, absolutely zero, assumptions whatsoever about the gutless cowards you want to shame? I probably am making some assumptions about public figures like Trump and Bolton (i.e. that they’re lying about why they avoided service as younger men), but I’m not sure about any assumptions I’m making about the hypothetical hordes of unnamed cowards. If you think I have, please let me know. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2019, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/527 "2019-06-03T00:08:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I wasn’t aware you were making this argument. Are you saying that it’s hypocritical for someone who opposes unnecessary wars of choice to work for the US military as a civilian or on active duty? > . Seriously? You’ve already responded to another post of mine in this thread where I made that specific accusation. Could you tone down the “ironically stupid” tactic? It’s bleeding into the non-ironic. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2019, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/528 "2019-06-03T00:16:12Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Seriously? You’ve already responded to another post of mine in this thread where I made that specific accusation. Could you tone down the “ironically stupid” tactic? It’s bleeding into the non-ironic. I thought you were making it hypothetically. If you are actually making this argument seriously, then I disagree with the argument. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2019, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/529 "2019-06-03T00:21:18Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I do think that if someone is supportive of war, they should choose something that is actually supportive of the war. If you are against homelessness, and you put your charity time and money into animal rights, then that doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Both are noble, sure, but only one has anything to do with what you claim to be for. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > There is no reason why you would be asked to do anything exclusively. OK, please explain these two quotes to me. I support a particular military effort - exactly how much of my charity time and money do I need to devote to supporting the military (apparently paying my taxes isn’t enough) to justify not calling me a coward? And can you tell me what form that charity time and money would be in to “support the military”? I still want to be able to volunteer with Search and Rescue, building hiking trails, and cancer research. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2019, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/530 "2019-06-03T04:09:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Ahh, I was unaware of rules like this. I thought I was just a guy laying out an idea, and then expanding my thoughts when some other things were brought up. You know, kind of like a discussion – an exchange of ideas and thoughts. But if these are the rules, then congratulations once again! You should have known Clause B paragraph 4 of the unwritten rules of internet debate clearly state that if you make a proposal, then any consideration of feedback or criticism to change or improve the proposal means that you have lost the internetz. > [@Telemark](#): > > OK, please explain these two quotes to me. I support a particular military effort - exactly how much of my charity time and money do I need to devote to supporting the military (apparently paying my taxes isn’t enough) to justify not calling me a coward? Well, how much do you think is necessary to support the wars you support? It’s up to you. If you hear that there are people out there that think that those who advocate war without being willing to support it themselves are not being well thought of, will you get angry at them because you don’t think that they will think well of you because you advocate a war you will not sacrifice for? It’s not up to me, it really is up to you. Shame is not something given, it is something taken. If you would feel shame after advocating for war because someone asks what you are doing to support it, then you know that you are not doing enough. > [@](#): > > And can you tell me what form that charity time and money would be in to “support the military”? Whatever form you find best suites your abilities to assist in the war that you want your country to wage. > [@](#): > > I still want to be able to volunteer with Search and Rescue, Great, that sounds like that would free up other able bodied individuals to assist in other parts of the war effort. > [@](#): > > building hiking trails, Well, we all want things, but part of sacrifice is not getting what we want. Nothing wrong with building hiking trails, but if you want to ask others to go to war, maybe you would feel better knowing that you were doing something that is less of a luxury > [@](#): > > and cancer research. Vets get cancer too. … It was hard to unpack the assumptions that are made in those questions, I doubt I will go through that effort again, and I would appreciate it if you would make the assumption that I am debating in good faith, and that the goal is reducing support for unnecessary wars, and that we are discussing the effectiveness and practicality of using “shame” as a method of doing so, as well as being open to determine the effective scope and uses of it. The assumption that I want to use this as some sort of way of abrogating free speech or humiliating my opponents does not have any relevancy to the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2019, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/531 "2019-06-03T12:50:25Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Well, how much do you think is necessary to support the wars you support? It’s up to you. OK, I’m good then. Since I think voting, paying your taxes, and following the law is enough support for having an opinion on anything. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > It’s not up to me, it really is up to you. Shame is not something given, it is something taken. If you would feel shame after advocating for war because someone asks what you are doing to support it, then you know that you are not doing enough. Again, I’m good. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Vets get cancer too. Vets hike a lot. Many use hiking and nature as a way of recovering from PTSD, and others just like to hike. You could use this line of reasoning about literally anything, since vets do all sorts of things. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > The assumption that I want to use this as some sort of way of abrogating free speech or humiliating my opponents does not have any relevancy to the discussion. My belief is that your argument relies on faulty logic. I’m all for avoiding unnecessary wars; I think we’re in complete agreement there. What I’m saying is that the idea of shaming people who disagree with you because they don’t meet an ill defined and fundamentally subjective criteria about “support” is deeply flawed. It presumes to have privileged knowledge, insight into complex motivations, and the moral high ground when none of those things are apparent. I think nearly everyone wants to eliminate unnecessary military conflict. Volunteering for the military or volunteering your time at a VA hospital or any other arbitrary criteria shouldn’t be a benchmark to determine ridicule if that person draws the line in a different place than you do. If you go down that route, I will dismiss anything you have to offer in the dialog because you’re just promoting vitriol and name calling. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2019, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/532 "2019-06-03T12:54:31Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > If you go down that route, I will dismiss anything you have to offer in the dialog because you’re just promoting vitriol and name calling. This is another part of the fundamental disagreement – whether one believes that vitriol and name calling should ever be utilized. I think, in limited circumstances, they can be useful tools – Nazis (and Nazi-supporters) can be called Nazis; abusers of women or children can be called abusers of women or children; cowards can be called cowards; etc. YMMV, but I think this is a tool that is very frequently misused but still can be useful and effective in limited circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2019, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/533 "2019-06-03T14:29:21Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > OK, I’m good then. Since I think voting, paying your taxes, and following the law is enough support for having an opinion on anything. And if you agree that you truly believe that doing that is enough to support the wars that you want, then great. On the taxes front, however, I see that we are not paying enough taxes to fund our govt as is. If you want a war, are you willing to see your tax rates go up to fund it? You can certainly have an opinion on anything. The question isn’t whether you can have an opinion, it is whether or not you can, in good conscience, express that opinion in public, knowing the consequences that will come if your opinion is favored, and whether you are willing to accept the burden of those consequences, or if you will allow others to shoulder it. > [@](#): > > Again, I’m good. Great, so if someone goes in public, and says that anyone who advocates for the war without sacrificing anything of their own for it is a piece of shit, you will not be offended or ashamed? > [@](#): > > Vets hike a lot. Many use hiking and nature as a way of recovering from PTSD, and others just like to hike. Hadn’t thought of that, good point. > [@](#): > > You could use this line of reasoning about literally anything, since vets do all sorts of things. That is actually what I said earlier. > [@](#): > > My belief is that your argument relies on faulty logic. I’m all for avoiding unnecessary wars; I think we’re in complete agreement there. What I’m saying is that the idea of shaming people who disagree with you because they don’t meet an ill defined and fundamentally subjective criteria about “support” is deeply flawed. It presumes to have privileged knowledge, insight into complex motivations, and the moral high ground when none of those things are apparent. I still believe that you do not fully grasp the actual argument and proposal of using “shame” as a tool to decrease public support for unnecessary wars. Simply adding the “meme” to the public sphere that advocacy for war without support for that war is shameful doesn’t mean that _I_ get to define subjective criteria. If anyone is criticizing you directly, it would be friends or family who _do_ know what you advocate, and do know what you do to support what you advocate, not me, a random internet guy who doesn’t know you from Adam. The hope would be that the message would be internalized. That when you start considering beating the drum for war, you take stock of what you are doing to support the treasury and lives that are being expended. Some will step up and do more to support our military and returning troops. Some will rethink their position on the war. And some will whine and complain that someone said something mean to them on the internet. > [@](#): > > I think nearly everyone wants to eliminate unnecessary military conflict. I don’t know about that. If that were the case, then we wouldn’t be staring at a potential Iran war here. I see many in public and in civilian life beating that war drum. I wouldn’t mind throwing a mute on that percussion. > [@](#): > > Volunteering for the military or volunteering your time at a VA hospital or any other arbitrary criteria shouldn’t be a benchmark to determine ridicule if that person draws the line in a different place than you do. That is correct, and agrees with my argument. > [@](#): > > If you go down that route, I will dismiss anything you have to offer in the dialog because you’re just promoting vitriol and name calling. Right, and here we are back at the reason for this proposal, where you “presume to have privileged knowledge, insight into complex motivations, and the moral high ground”. I am promoting giving people a reason to think twice about their advocacy for unnecessary conflict. I am sorry if some feelings are hurt along the way if people are upset when they are asked to support what they advocate, as that is not the goal. There are, in my mind at least, two parts to this proposal. What we have talked about fairly extensively here is about private civilians who advocate for war, but there is also the question of elected officials, political appointees, and public figures who advocate for war. Do you have any problem with public figures who advocate for war being publicly called out and asked what sacrifices they have made in support of the war? If you take the story that Nugent told about his draft dodging as true, and he called for war with Iran, would publicly criticizing him be acceptable, in your opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2019, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/534 "2019-06-03T15:21:23Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Great, so if someone goes in public, and says that anyone who advocates for the war without sacrificing anything of their own for it is a piece of shit, you will not be offended or ashamed? I certainly won’t be offended or ashamed, I have no reason to be. I will simply dismiss their opinion as being uninformed. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2019, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/535 "2019-06-03T15:44:27Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > I certainly won’t be offended or ashamed, I have no reason to be. I will simply dismiss their opinion as being uninformed. Which you have the right to do, just as they can dismiss your\* uninformed opinions about the war you\* want. \*ETA: royal you ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2019, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/536 "2019-06-03T15:48:40Z")
I hate to quote myself, but we’ve talked about the private side of this rather extensively, and I would actually be very interested in your opinion on this: > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Do you have any problem with public figures who advocate for war being publicly called out and asked what sacrifices they have made in support of the war? > > If you take the story that Nugent told about his draft dodging as true, and he called for war with Iran, would publicly criticizing him be acceptable, in your opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2019, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/537 "2019-06-03T16:18:58Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I hate to quote myself, but we’ve talked about the private side of this rather extensively, and I would actually be very interested in your opinion on this: Taking active steps to avoid the draft is a perfectly legitimate subject of criticism; public or private. I would extend that to calling someone a hypocrite or supporting their decision, depending on the scenario. But it has little to do with someone not volunteering for the military. Public figures shouldn’t be required to make arbitrary sacrifices in order to justify their political leanings, any more than private citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2019, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/538 "2019-06-03T16:46:52Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Taking active steps to avoid the draft is a perfectly legitimate subject of criticism; public or private. I would extend that to calling someone a hypocrite or supporting their decision, depending on the scenario. And I forgot to add, even if they are hypocrites they might be correct in their stance on any particular military situation. Being an asshole doesn’t mean you’re not right. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2025, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/539 "2025-06-20T19:48:11Z")
It’s that time of the decade again – many Americans, in office, in public life, online, and even a few on the Dope, are advocating that America should go to war. I’d just like to reiterate the sentiment that, if you are American, and believe we should go to war right now, and you’re roughly between 18 and 50 years old and you’re not already in the US military, or ready to enlist (or you don’t have a damn good reason why you shouldn’t), then you are personally a yellow-bellied, gutless, sniveling worm of a coward. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2025, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/540 "2025-06-20T19:59:54Z")
Does this go for Americans only? Or can we include vocal never-served war hawks from other belligerent countries as well? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250.md?page=28)