# Supporting military action that you are able but not willing to participate in is extremely cowardly **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 20, 2019, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250 "2019-05-20T19:45:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/121 "2019-05-21T15:15:38Z")
If you want lumber to exist you should be willing to go chop down a tree. Doesn’t seem that complicated to me. This is just a thought experiment, of course – in the real world there’s no reason for average citizens to position themselves in a manner to be able to chop down trees should the moment arise. There’s plenty of people willing to be lumberjacks, and there are other jobs that must be done, and we all have personal preferences about where we live and what kind of work we enjoy. But that doesn’t preclude someone from being willing to chop down a hypothetical tree if the country needed it. But that’s where I agree with Andy that war is unique. It’s not just producing lumber, and if people want war then I think they \*should \*be positioning themselves to take part in it. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/122 "2019-05-21T15:17:19Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > As far as comparing it to other jobs – who are these people saying they wouldn’t want to be miners or IRS agents or border patrol? We’re not saying you have to make a career out of it, or be the first in line to volunteer. If I felt that our country needed miners or IRS agents or border patrol guards and nobody else was willing to step up, I would absolutely raise my hand to do any of those jobs. How can you advocate for a job to exist if you’re not willing to do it yourself? Makes no sense to me. Uhm… after a childhood and specially teen years whose main theme was “taking care of Mom” (including medically), I want to be a nurse like I want to jump off a cliff. If the cliff is tall enough that I’m guaranteed to die, I find the jump less repulsive, it would hurt less. But I’m perfectly happy that there are nurses, doctors, hospital techs, EMTs… I expect most of them would have zero interest (and, for some of them and some of these tasks, not much trainability) in being IT people, doing process improvement or writing corporate manuals, yet they’re very happy to call the IT people, have processes which aren’t stupid or manuals which provide decent information. Your example is a pretty bad one. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/123 "2019-05-21T15:17:44Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I consider it the duty of the state to provide for the common defense. This is part of the reason I pay my taxes. If I were to advocate for some war, I would be arguing that the war is necessary for the survival of the state and the people it represents. While I might not actively volunteer for duty, if my name came up in the draft you bet I would answer the call. And if I argued for the war, I have no right to complain about being drafted. > > ~Max That doesn’t seem unreasonable, except why a draft? A draft will sweep up people who _didn’t_ advocate for the war, while only presenting a small chance that you (an advocate) would have to serve. What about a draft that only picked from people who voted in favor of the war? If such a hypothetical could exist. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/124 "2019-05-21T15:19:01Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Uhm… after a childhood and specially teen years whose main theme was “taking care of Mom” (including medically), I want to be a nurse like I want to jump off a cliff. If the cliff is tall enough that I’m guaranteed to die, I find the jump less repulsive, it would hurt less. > > But I’m perfectly happy that there are nurses, doctors, hospital techs, EMTs… I expect most of them would have zero interest (and, for some of them and some of these tasks, not much trainability) in being IT people, doing process improvement or writing corporate manuals, yet they’re very happy to call the IT people, have processes which aren’t stupid or manuals which provide decent information. Your example is a pretty bad one. If nursing needed to be done and there were no other people around, you wouldn’t step up and be a nurse? Maybe I’m not explaining myself very well. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/125 "2019-05-21T15:19:53Z")
Maybe it’s a matter of Spanish verbs vs English verbs. I will nurse someone for a very, very short period of time. More than two hours on someone who’s not my direct relative, KILL ME. Multiple people, fuck no. Every working day nursing, I can’t even imagine it without seeing red. Nurse someone for a very short period, yes; be a nurse, no. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/126 "2019-05-21T15:20:22Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > … I generally think personal attacks are a bad idea in most debates, but not this one. War is a special case – especially monstrous, in the vast majority of cases. We should use each and every possible tool, including (sometimes) ad hominem attacks, when we think it can be effective in order to prevent dumb wars. So would you say you’re more of an “ends justify the means” sort of guy? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/127 "2019-05-21T15:23:05Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Maybe it’s a matter of Spanish verbs vs English verbs. I will nurse someone for a very, very short period of time. > > More than two hours on someone who’s not my direct relative, KILL ME. Multiple people, fuck no. Every working day nursing, I can’t even imagine it without seeing red. I think people are getting stuck on “want” versus “willing” to do a job. Nobody _wants_ to go to war, except maybe naive young kids trying to prove themselves and sociopaths. But many are _willing_ to go to war. I don’t _want_ to be a bus driver. I’m _willing_ to be a bus driver, because I think bus drivers need to exist. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/128 "2019-05-21T15:23:38Z")
That’s the thing, I’m not willing to be a nurse. If my only options in life had been nursing school or nursing school, I understand that 10-floor falls are enough to kill you (we lived in a 10th floor and my room had a very climbable balcony). ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/129 "2019-05-21T15:27:06Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > If you want lumber to exist you should be willing to go chop down a tree. Doesn’t seem that complicated to me. This is just a thought experiment, of course – in the real world there’s no reason for average citizens to position themselves in a manner to be able to chop down trees should the moment arise. There’s plenty of people willing to be lumberjacks, and there are other jobs that must be done, and we all have personal preferences about where we live and what kind of work we enjoy. But that doesn’t preclude someone from being willing to chop down a hypothetical tree if the country needed it. > > But that’s where I agree with Andy that war is unique. It’s not just producing lumber, and if people want war then I think they \*should \*be positioning themselves to take part in it. In what relevant way is war unique? Just like lumberjacks, there’s plenty of people willing to be soldiers. Why is there any more reason for average citizens to position themselves to take part in war than lumber harvesting? Why is a vague “if no one else were willing to do it, I guess I would” sufficient in the case of lumber harvesting but not prosecuting a war? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/130 "2019-05-21T15:28:48Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > That doesn’t seem unreasonable, except why a draft? A draft will sweep up people who _didn’t_ advocate for the war, while only presenting a small chance that you (an advocate) would have to serve. > > What about a draft that only picked from people who voted in favor of the war? If such a hypothetical could exist. I sort of want to get behind such a selective draft - you would have to put in exceptions for eg: people with dependents - but I just can’t. The state cannot single out people for their political opinions. It would be unconstitutional and imparts the same chilling effect (to a lesser degree) on public debate as Mr. **iiandyiiii** ’s proposed public shaming. People should have the right to lean in on public debate without being punished for doing so, and it is especially cruel to only punish the most physically fit citizens for exercising an inalienable right simply because they are fit for military service. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/131 "2019-05-21T15:30:38Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > … People should have the right to lean in on public debate without being punished for doing so, and it is especially cruel to only punish the most physically fit citizens for exercising an inalienable right simply because they are fit for military service. > > ~Max It also strikes me as cruel, and stupid, to single only the most physically fit out for public shaming, as iiandyiiii proposes. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/132 "2019-05-21T15:32:21Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > In what relevant way is war unique? Just like lumberjacks, there’s plenty of people willing to be soldiers. Why is there any more reason for average citizens to position themselves to take part in war than lumber harvesting? Why is a vague “if no one else were willing to do it, I guess I would” sufficient in the case of lumber harvesting but not prosecuting a war? Because lumberjacks don’t fall under the UCMJ. Soldiers can’t back out of a war. They may be asked to do things that are uniquely dangerous, or psychologically damaging. War is hell. If lumberjacking were like that, I wouldn’t be willing to lumberjack without a damn good reason, and I therefore couldn’t expect anyone else to lumberjack either. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/133 "2019-05-21T15:54:08Z")
That so many folks really aren’t understanding that war is a fundamentally different enterprise than logging, mining, nursing, or a million other professions is a huge part of why we get into so many stupid wars. It’s so clearly different that I have trouble conceiving that anyone could see them as similar. All these other professions are taking care of the necessities of society. Wars of choice are powerful authorities deciding to purposefully kill, and put at risk, many human beings, for some supposed benefit or advantage. War is very, very rarely necessary for human society (and it’s only necessary when another human society has failed in some way). Gathering resources and taking care of people is always necessary, for every human society. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/134 "2019-05-21T16:06:10Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Because lumberjacks don’t fall under the UCMJ. Soldiers can’t back out of a war. They may be asked to do things that are uniquely dangerous, or psychologically damaging. War is hell. > > If lumberjacking were like that, I wouldn’t be willing to lumberjack without a damn good reason, and I therefore couldn’t expect anyone else to lumberjack either. Agreed, war is different than lumber harvesting. In addition, an express consequence of war is the loss of human life, while the loss of human life during lumber harvesting is accidental. War always inflicts harm. The comparison is naïve. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/135 "2019-05-21T16:10:08Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > People should have the right to lean in on public debate without being punished for doing so, and it is especially cruel to only punish the most physically fit citizens for exercising an inalienable right simply because they are fit for military service. Other citizens having the option to be critical isn’t “being punished” in any way at all – that’s just part of normal human interaction. Further, I would be critical of anyone advocating for a dumb war, not just fit people – I just would use different sorts of criticism (and possibly personal attacks) against different warmongers, depending on the circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/136 "2019-05-21T16:15:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Other citizens having the option to be critical isn’t “being punished” in any way at all – that’s just part of normal human interaction. Further, I would be critical of anyone advocating for a dumb war, not just fit people – I just would use different sorts of criticism (and possibly personal attacks) against different warmongers, depending on the circumstances. In the strict sense, what you quoted applied to **steronz** ’s proposed politically-selective draft, not your proposal. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/137 "2019-05-21T16:15:21Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You can call them anything you like, but I don’t think this is relevant to the thread. This appears totally uncomparable to advocating for dumb wars. The principle is one may not support government action that puts others at risk unless one is willing to put oneself at risk. The CA Assembly is willing to support government action that puts police at risk. Therefore, unless they are willing to put themselves at risk, they should be called gutless cowards. QED. Unless you have a reason why the principle doesn’t apply generally, it’s more or less special pleading, not to say hand-waving. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/138 "2019-05-21T16:19:59Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > That doesn’t seem unreasonable, except why a draft? A draft will sweep up people who _didn’t_ advocate for the war, while only presenting a small chance that you (an advocate) would have to serve. > > What about a draft that only picked from people who voted in favor of the war? If such a hypothetical could exist. I’ve got it. If the government actually needed more soldiers, and put out a public notice saying so much, in _that_ case I would have no problem calling a hawk a coward for refusing to enlist. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/139 "2019-05-21T16:20:54Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The principle is one may not support government action that puts others at risk unless one is willing to put oneself at risk. The CA Assembly is willing to support government action that puts police at risk. Therefore, unless they are willing to put themselves at risk, they should be called gutless cowards. QED. > > Unless you have a reason why the principle doesn’t apply generally, it’s more or less special pleading, not to say hand-waving. > > Regards, > Shodan That’s certainly not the principle that motivates my position. My principle is about war, and unnecessary wars in particular. Not some notion of “risk”. War is much, much more than just some notion of “risk”. But how do you feel about my position? Do you think it’s cowardly, or not cowardly, to advocate for a war that one is capable of but unwilling to participate in? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2019, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250/140 "2019-05-21T16:23:00Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > In the strict sense, what you quoted applied to **steronz** ’s proposed politically-selective draft, not your proposal. > > ~Max Fair enough, thanks. > [@Max\_S](#): > > I’ve got it. If the government actually needed more soldiers, and put out a public notice saying so much, in _that_ case I would have no problem calling a hawk a coward for refusing to enlist. > > ~Max Wonderful! I might go a bit further than you, but it looks like we’re pretty close to being on the same page, especially in sentiment. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supporting-military-action-that-you-are-able-but-not-willing-to-participate-in-is-extremely-cowardly/834250.md?page=8)