# Supposably - have mispronounced words become standard? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 17, 2015, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875 "2015-02-17T00:36:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875/241 "2015-03-05T16:37:40Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > I think “obsolescent” is also pretty obsolescent. Then what word do you substitute for it? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875/242 "2015-03-05T18:38:20Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Then what word do you substitute for it? Most dudes today just (improperly) use “obsolete”. Just like people use “exact” when they more likely mean “precise”- altho there the difference is smaller. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875/243 "2015-03-05T18:39:10Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Then what word do you substitute for it? The correct one, depending on what was meant. Some things are obsolescent, others are obsolete. On the topic of pronunciation, heard another one today: “coincidence”, pronounced as if it was spelled “quincidence”. Drives me nuts. The word denotes incidents _co-located_ in space or time. It has nothing to do with quints or the Mighty Quinn. 😛 Though I admit “supposably” is worse. ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875/244 "2015-03-05T19:21:23Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > On the topic of pronunciation, heard another one today: “coincidence”, pronounced as if it was spelled “quincidence”. Drives me nuts. As long as it’s not “co-inky-dink,” I’m happy. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875/245 "2015-03-06T00:50:48Z")
Something that will eventually make me go postal (kidding). I had it drilled into me by every elementary school teacher that “the” is pronounced “thuh” if the word following starts with a consonant sound and “thee” if followed by a vowel sound. “Thuh” bus - “thee” apple. “Thuh” apple sounds like a phrase a caveman would say as he learns English. Somehow, without warning, this rule seems to have been discarded. It drives me insane. If I hear you violate the rule I will automatically assume you have no education or that you were a contrary as a child and refused to listen to teachers. Was the rule I was taught regional? ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875/246 "2015-03-06T01:22:26Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > Something that will eventually make me go postal (kidding). > I had it drilled into me by every elementary school teacher that “the” is pronounced “thuh” if the word following starts with a consonant sound and “thee” if followed by a vowel sound. > > “Thuh” bus - “thee” apple. “Thuh” apple sounds like a phrase a caveman would say as he learns English. > > Somehow, without warning, this rule seems to have been discarded. It drives me insane. If I hear you violate the rule I will automatically assume you have no education or that you were a contrary as a child and refused to listen to teachers. > > Was the rule I was taught regional? Why would anyone need to tell anyone how to pronounce one of the most common words in spoken English? You were speaking it correctly before you even set foot in any school, I can guarantee you that. Did they also tell you how fast to grow your hair? ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875/247 "2015-03-06T01:45:08Z")
Because I am hearing this “misuse” more and more. (Assuming you were taught the same rule that I was). Not sure what your post meant. There were definitely kids in my 3rd grade class who would “slip-up” and the teacher would correct them ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875/248 "2015-03-06T02:06:35Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > Was the rule I was taught regional? I’ve never heard of any such rule. Pronouncing the as thee before a vowel strikes me as affected. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875/249 "2015-03-06T02:31:09Z")
Some kid wrote: “The four ages of man are infancy, childhood, adolescence, and obsolescence.” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875/250 "2015-03-06T02:34:11Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > I’ve never heard of any such rule. Pronouncing the as thee before a vowel strikes me as affected. Affected? What’s that mean? “Thuh” is always “thee” when preceded by a vowel, no? ETA: Thee apple, thee air conditioner, thee ocean, etc ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875/251 "2015-03-06T02:38:39Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Affected? What’s that mean? “Thuh” is always “thee” when preceded > by a vowel, no? It certainly is a “rule” I was taught as a kid here in Chicago in the 80s. I don’t know for certain how I pronounce it in spontaneous speech, but I think I do generally say “thuh” before a consonant and “thee” before a vowel, but I’d be willing to bet it’s not 100%. There are also other uses of the “thee” pronunciation. It can also be used for emphasis (e.g.“Is that THEE Sausage King of Chicago?”) and it’s often used in hesitated speech, where a speaker is looking for a word (“Hand me THEEEE… whaddayacall it, thee … uh, thuh socket wrench” or something like that.) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875/252 "2015-03-06T03:59:18Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Affected? What’s that mean? “Thuh” is always “thee” when preceded by a vowel, no? > > ETA: Thee apple, thee air conditioner, thee ocean, etc Never heard of such a rule. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875/253 "2015-03-06T04:10:07Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Affected? What’s that mean? “Thuh” is always “thee” when preceded by a vowel, no? > > ETA: Thee apple, thee air conditioner, thee ocean, etc I’m from the Bronx. No.😃 ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875/254 "2015-03-06T04:44:28Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Never heard of such a rule. Just a quick Google, but [here is an example of it.](https://www.englishclub.com/pronunciation/the.htm) ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875/255 "2015-03-06T07:59:23Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > Because I am hearing this “misuse” more and more. (Assuming you were taught the same rule that I was). Not sure what your post meant. > There were definitely kids in my 3rd grade class who would “slip-up” and the teacher would correct them My point is that phonological rules are not taught. That would be like presuming to teach a normal, healthy adult the “rule” for how to walk correctly. Phonology is what comes naturally when we speak. As for the rule itself, it’s not universal, and is not necessarily marked by education. As Longman notes, some speakers use the reduced vowel before a vowel, (and insert a glottal stop): [QUOTE=Longman Pronunciation Dictionary] The EFL learner is advised to use [ðə] before a consonant sound (the boy, the house), [ði] before a vowel sound (the egg, the hour). Native speakers, however, sometimes ignore this distribution, in particular by using [ðə] before a vowel (which is in turn usually reinforced by a preceding ʔ), or by using [ði:] in any environment, though especially before a hesitation pause. Furthermore, some speakers use stressed [ðə] as a strong form, rather than the usual [ði:]. [/quote] ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875/256 "2015-03-06T08:45:42Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Most common is pronunciation changes cause by taking the spelling literally. > > “Comfortable” started out with three syllables; now many pronounce it with four. > > “Often” has a silent “t”; it’s now being pronounced. > > “Victuals” was correctly pronounced “vittles”; many people pronounce it the way it’s spelled. I’m pretty sure “often” went through three stages: Pronounced “t” Silent “t” Back to pronounced “t” ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875/257 "2015-03-06T14:15:49Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > My point is that phonological rules are not taught. That would be like presuming to teach a normal, healthy adult the “rule” for how to walk correctly. Phonology is what comes naturally when we speak. > > As for the rule itself, it’s not universal, and is not necessarily marked by education. As Longman notes, some speakers use the reduced vowel before a vowel, (and insert a glottal stop): Yeah, the Longman observation sounds correct to me, at least how I speak. It’s not 100% consistent, but the reason – I think, at least for me – as to why I (and apparently many/most native speakers) use “/ði/” before a vowel and “/ðə/” before a consonant is because it feels easier/more natural to glide from an /i/ sound into a vowel than it is to go from an /ə/ into a vowel sound. At least, that’s my impression, but it could just seem easier because that’s what I’m used to doing. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875/258 "2015-03-06T22:32:19Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > My point is that phonological rules are not taught. That would be like presuming to teach a normal, healthy adult the “rule” for how to walk correctly. Phonology is what comes naturally when we speak. > > As for the rule itself, it’s not universal, and is not necessarily marked by education. As Longman notes, some speakers use the reduced vowel before a vowel, (and insert a glottal stop): Right- I mean I have heard it and it doesnt sound wrong, but I never heard of it as a "rule’. I just thought it was a regional thing or something. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875/259 "2015-03-07T04:51:58Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Affected? What’s that mean? “Thuh” is always “thee” when preceded by a vowel, no? > > > > ETA: Thee apple, thee air conditioner, thee ocean, etc > > I’m from the Bronx. > > No.😃 Keep in mind, though, that nobody’s suggesting that the “the” sound in the pronunciation of _the apple_ is said with the same emphasis or vowel length as in the word _thee_, as someone might do when reciting a Bible passage. To say it’s “thee apple” is to assert something about the quality of the vowel, not its length or stress. ---
**Author:** ![Willingham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/0ea827/32.png) [@Willingham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Willingham)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875/260 "2015-03-07T05:55:43Z")
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