# Supposably - have mispronounced words become standard? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 17, 2015, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875 "2015-02-17T00:36:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875/61 "2015-02-17T19:02:40Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > Another example of a deliberate change is that of names. When Peking was changed to Beijing, . Naw, that was just to fuck with the Western Roundeyes. “Peking” is our name for their capital, just like “Germany” is our name for “Deutschland” . Only dickheads demand other change the historical word.😛 But we usually give in to the dickheads. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875/62 "2015-02-17T19:05:28Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > Examples of mispronunciations that are becoming standard are “forte” pronounced for-tay instead of the traditional one-syllable way, and “err” pronounced like “air” instead of like “urr.” The pronunciation that used to be considered wrong is now universal, but the pedants still consider the new versions to be incorrect. The thing is- it just sounds wrong and it’s open to misunderstanding. Say :“Good English is his forte”- and it can be misunderstood that you mean “fort” as in “fortification”. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875/63 "2015-02-17T20:12:07Z")
Peking is the name in the Wade-Giles romanization system for Mandarin Chinese for the name of the city. Beijing is the name for it in the Pinyin romanization system. There’s no such thing as an absolutely definitive romanization system for any of the Chinese languages (or Chinese dialects, as they’re miscalled), because the definitive name for something in any of the Chinese languages is the Chinese characters used for that name. To make it clear to non-Chinese speakers how the Chinese pronounce a character though, there were various romanization systems invented which used the Latin alphabet to indicate the pronunciation. One such Romanization system was the Wade-Giles system, which was more popular in the early twentieth century. It was for a while accepted by most of the world as the standard way of spelling Chinese names. More recently, a romanization system called Pinyin was invented which does a better job (it’s usually agreed) of representing the pronunciation of Chinese. The Republic of China (i.e., Taiwan) preferred the Wade-Giles system, while the People’s Republic of China (what we now think of as China) preferred the Pinyin system, so until we (the U.S.) recognized China in 1979, we used the Wade-Giles system for most things. Now we use the Pinyin system for most purposes in the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![sich\_hinaufwinden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@sich\_hinaufwinden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sich_hinaufwinden)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875/64 "2015-02-17T20:27:55Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > …I think “err” has been a synonym for “air” across the mid-West for a long time. Presumably you meant “homonym”? That’s okay. As they, “To air is human…” ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875/65 "2015-02-17T20:48:48Z")
> [@sich\_hinaufwinden](#): > > Presumably you meant “homonym”? > > That’s okay. As they, “To air is human…” Rivkah was getting at “homophone” - differently-spelled words that sound alike (e.g. our/hour, cent/scent, etc.). “Homonyms” are look-alikes – same spelling, different pronunciatins (e.g. “\*\*Read \*\*me this book … I \*\*read \*\*that already”.). ---
**Author:** ![sich\_hinaufwinden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@sich\_hinaufwinden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sich_hinaufwinden)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875/66 "2015-02-17T21:09:47Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > Rivkah was getting at “homophone” - differently-spelled words that sound alike (e.g. our/hour, cent/scent, etc.). > > “Homonyms” are look-alikes – same spelling, different pronunciatins (e.g. “\*\*Read \*\*me this book … I \*\*read \*\*that already”.). From the very first definition of homonym from [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com): 1. Phonetics. a word pronounced the same as another but differing in meaning, whether spelled the same way or not, as heir and air; And yes I know that it also lists homophone in the definition of homonym. I think the word you’re looking for is “homograph”. In any event, I stand by my post as written and believe I used the word correctly. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875/67 "2015-02-17T21:16:16Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > … > > a couple of centuries ago, when anthropologists, linguists, or missionaries went for long stays in foreign countries, they took small printing presses with hand-set movable type that was intended for English, and had letters supplied in the frequency needed for English (lots of Es, not many Zs, etc). When the anthropologists or whomever set out to print, they found that incorporating native words and place name made them run out of some letters too soon, and have extras of others, so they used approximations. There were a lot more capital Ps than Bs, and a P is just a devoiced B, so Bejing started with a P. In early pamphlets, there may have been pronunciation guides, but people didn’t pay much attention to them. > … Since we’re in General Questions, do you have a cite for this claim? It seems highly unlikely to me. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875/68 "2015-02-17T21:23:54Z")
Anthropologists didn’t exist two centuries ago. Neither, really, did linguists. I’d like to see your citation too. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875/69 "2015-02-17T21:50:00Z")
> [@sich\_hinaufwinden](#): > > From the very first definition of homonym from [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com): > > 1. Phonetics. a word pronounced the same as another but differing in meaning, whether spelled the same way or not, as heir and air; > > And yes I know that it also lists homophone in the definition of homonym. > > I think the word you’re looking for is “homograph”. > > In any event, I stand by my post as written and believe I used the word correctly. [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com) is on crack. Homonym - same name. Homophone - same sound. > **[Oxford English Dictionary](https://www.oed.com/?tl=true)** > > The OED is the definitive record of the English language, featuring 600,000 words, 3 million quotations, and over 1,000 years of English. ---
**Author:** ![Cartoonacy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/848f3c/32.png) [@Cartoonacy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartoonacy)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875/70 "2015-02-17T21:55:02Z")
I’m still waiting to see an episode of _The Big Bang Theory_ in which someone points out to Sheldon that he’s been mispronouncing “coitus” for the past seven years. ---
**Author:** ![sich\_hinaufwinden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@sich\_hinaufwinden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sich_hinaufwinden)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875/71 "2015-02-17T23:37:16Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com) is on crack. Homonym - same name. Homophone - same sound. > > [http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/88089?redirectedFrom=homonym#eid](http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/88089?redirectedFrom=homonym#eid) I don’t have a subscription to oed so I can’t read the cite you linked to. But it doesn’t matter. I am aware that in formal/technical settings, “homonym” strictly refers to words that are both homophones and a homographs. However, plenty of people use “homonym” to refer to either homophones or homographs. A simple on-line search of dictionaries and articles on the subject confirms this. It is not wrong in non-formal/non-technical settings no matter what some may want to believe. This is accepted usage and not liking it isn’t going to change it. And **bordelond** is incorrect. While homonym can be used to mean the same thing as homograph, that is not the only definition of homonym as his post suggests. And he gets it wrong again when he says that they are “look-alikes – same spelling, different pronunciatins.” [sic] Homographs are not required to have different pronunciations as he apparently believes. And in fact for a homograph to be a “true” homonym, it would be the opposite of what he says - the words would have to have the same pronunciations. What **RivkahChaya** wrote was wrong. What **bordelond** wrote is wrong. At worst, a case could be made that I wasn’t right. But I was not wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875/72 "2015-02-17T23:44:05Z")
> [@Cartoonacy](#): > > I’m still waiting to see an episode of _The Big Bang Theory_ in which someone points out to Sheldon that he’s been mispronouncing “coitus” for the past seven years. Really? How do you pronounce it? [Link to recorded dictionary pronunciations both US and British.](http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/british/coitus) ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875/73 "2015-02-17T23:47:35Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > I used to say it the first way until I realized it’s like saying Favre as Farve. Now I make it a point to pronounce it as it is spelled. In any case, with names of foreign origin like this it’s just as well. Unless you have acquired near-native fluency in the language, nobody should expect you to pronounce its names as a native would. You’ll only confuse people, and some may even regard it as ostentatious. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875/74 "2015-02-17T23:55:53Z")
“Prolly” for probably. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875/75 "2015-02-17T23:58:22Z")
And yes, it does seem that mispronounced, and occasionally misused, words are becoming standard, chiefly because a normative standard is increasingly viewed as elitist. As pointless as some of the prescriptive rules of English usage may be, other rules of grammar, usage, and pronunciation serve to facilitate communication and mutual intelligibility. I’ve mentioned it before but there was the online discussion I once read about suburban sprawl, housing, and public transit. When somebody piped up about “tracks” everywhere, it took me a minute to realize they meant housing _tracts_, not railroad tracks. The change from /kt/ to /k/ is a huge one, and I hear it all the time–e.g. “true facks”, “digestive track”, and so on. The simplification of consonant clusters is very common in the evolution of language; just try to find on in any of the major Romance languages. I’m sure the same thing is happening in English today. But I don’t have to like it! ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2015, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875/76 "2015-02-17T23:59:04Z")
Another language thread headed toward ninedee posts… ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2015, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875/77 "2015-02-18T00:05:07Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > explain to me why “s” is an appropriate representation of a “z” sound. Happens all the time in American English, too. Any plural ending with a voiced consonant, the “s” becomes voiced, i.e., a “z” sound. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2015, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875/78 "2015-02-18T00:07:13Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > Really? How do you pronounce it? > > [Link to recorded dictionary pronunciations both US and British.](http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/british/coitus) [Counter link](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/coitus?s=t). (That said, I say it with the “oy” sound myself.) ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2015, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875/79 "2015-02-18T00:15:03Z")
I’m an oy guy too. Never have I heard it pronounced coe-it-us. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2015, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875/80 "2015-02-18T01:18:35Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > Then why not use it in “surprise” or “enterprise”? Or do you? If you’re going to complain about UK/Commonwealth English being “more fucked up” than US English, you might want to check your dialect for consistency first. “gaol.” enough said. > [@pulykamell](#): > > Happens all the time in American English, too. Any plural ending with a voiced consonant, the “s” becomes voiced, i.e., a “z” sound. I know that, I was pointing out the silliness of insisting “analyse” makes more sense than “analyze.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposably-have-mispronounced-words-become-standard/712875.md?page=5)