# Suppose the Catholic Church made amends for the scandals. What would you like see them do? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 31, 2012, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suppose-the-catholic-church-made-amends-for-the-scandals-what-would-you-like-see-them-do/633239 "2012-08-31T09:51:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suppose-the-catholic-church-made-amends-for-the-scandals-what-would-you-like-see-them-do/633239/61 "2012-09-03T02:35:36Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > The Eastern Rite isn’t really relevant here, since we’re discussing the _Roman_ Catholic Church. But the married former Episcopalian priests that converted to Catholicism yet retained their status as priests seems sufficient to undermine (a) the notion that priests must be celibate, and (b) the notion that there’s anything uniquely special about Roman Catholic ordination. > > On that latter point, let’s work through the logic: > > 1. Either Episcopal ordination (a) is recognized as a valid priestly ordination on par with Roman Catholic ordination, or (b) it isn’t. > > 2. If (1b), then Episcopal priests who convert to Roman Catholicism _aren’t priests_, because they _never were priests with respect to Roman Catholicism._ From a Roman Catholic POV, they were always laymen; they just went from being lay persons outside the RCC to being lay persons within it. > > Now that they’re married lay Catholics, they can’t be ordained, because married lay Catholics can’t be ordained. But they’re ordained, so (1b) is false, and (1a) must be true. When a married Anglican priest converts to the Roman Catholicism, he starts as a lay person, who is then ordained as a deacon, and then is ordained as a priest. He is permited to continue to be married by papal dispensation. It is not that the rule of celibacy is not a rule, but rather that it is expedient for the church to turn a blind eye to it when there is enought to be gained. Keep in mind the context of entire congregations wanting to convert due to Anglican inclusion of ordained women and gays. Want the congregation? Accept the priest’s wife. ---
**Author:** ![by-tor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/by-tor/32/266_2.png) [@by-tor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/by-tor)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suppose-the-catholic-church-made-amends-for-the-scandals-what-would-you-like-see-them-do/633239/62 "2012-09-03T03:53:51Z")
No clergy allowed within 20 feet of a child. 95% of Catholic institutional funds to be used for ending poverty and disease in the third world, as well as providing free birth control. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suppose-the-catholic-church-made-amends-for-the-scandals-what-would-you-like-see-them-do/633239/63 "2012-09-03T03:59:08Z")
I can’t help but think of Inigo Montoya: “Give me back my childhood, you sonofabitch!” There’s really nothing they can do to make amends for the scandals. But if they were serious about doing so, then I think they’d need to make some very fundamental structural changes. Their unwillingness to do so, because God said not to, leads me to write them off. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suppose-the-catholic-church-made-amends-for-the-scandals-what-would-you-like-see-them-do/633239/64 "2012-09-03T04:11:59Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Their unwillingness to do so, because God said not to, leads me to write them off. That’s the brunt of the problem. People who believe they are directed by god and who belive they represent god’s authority tend to justify whatever they want to justify. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suppose-the-catholic-church-made-amends-for-the-scandals-what-would-you-like-see-them-do/633239/65 "2012-09-03T05:29:26Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Conduct a thorough investigation of their own, to identify not only as many sexually abusive priests as possible, but also as many bishops, archbishops, cardinals and whatnot who moved the sexually abusive priests from parish to parish, and covered up their crimes. (I gather from the crickets in my [GQ thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=664131) that nothing of the sort has been done.) > > After conducting this investigation, they should defrock and dismiss every last member of their hierarchy that, by the standard of preponderance of the evidence, appears to have committed sexual abuses of minors, or covered up for those who did. > > Then they should make public the results of their investigations of the dismissed priests, with names of persons besides the dismissed members of the hierarchy changed to protect the innocent. And then they should fully cooperate with any civil authorities conducting criminal investigations. > > And they should be ready to sell as much of their worldly property as necessary to pay off civil judgments to the victims of priestly child abuse. > > Believers’ options are limited, but I’m all for Der Trihs’ suggestion that they cease putting money in the collection plate until the RCC reforms itself. This. Completely. Every barrel has a rotten apple or two, but the RCC has been passing those rotten apples around and insisting that they are completely sound. They’ve been covering up the misdeeds for so long, and so consistently, that it’s policy. And that’s what I find unforgiveable. > [@by-tor](#): > > No clergy allowed within 20 feet of a child. > > 95% of Catholic institutional funds to be used for ending poverty and disease in the third world, as well as providing free birth control. Also, this. The RCC has been blocking access to birth control and even birth control education, to the vast detriment of the whole population. It’s even been disseminating lies about effective birth control. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suppose-the-catholic-church-made-amends-for-the-scandals-what-would-you-like-see-them-do/633239/66 "2012-09-03T08:51:03Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Think of the RC church’s institutionalized child buggering as a big step forward – at least the out-right murdering children is not supported. > > “Take your son, your only son – yes, Isaac, whom you love so much – and go to the land of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will point out to you.” (Genesis 22:1-18) > > “Consecrate to me every first-born that opens the womb among Israelites, both man and beast, for it belongs to me.”( Exodus 13:2) Or you could consider it a ritual re-enactment of the myth, as the Norse did to bring luck to the clan - “take your son, your only son - and go to your local Cathedral. Let him get rogered there by one of the priests, which I will point out to you (and then we’ll deny EVERYTHING)” [QUOTE=Tapioca Dextrin] And the Trump Chapel would be a sight to behold 😃 [/QUOTE] Not sure how even the Donald could tart up the Vatican more than it already is, to be honest. The Italian Renaissance had the market pretty locked up on gaudy, even though they notably did lack pink neon tech. Imagine the could have beens… ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suppose-the-catholic-church-made-amends-for-the-scandals-what-would-you-like-see-them-do/633239/67 "2012-09-03T10:23:02Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > When a married Anglican priest converts to the Roman Catholicism, he starts as a lay person, who is then ordained as a deacon, and then is ordained as a priest. He is permited to continue to be married by papal dispensation. It is not that the rule of celibacy is not a rule, but rather that it is expedient for the church to turn a blind eye to it when there is enought to be gained. Keep in mind the context of entire congregations wanting to convert due to Anglican inclusion of ordained women and gays. Want the congregation? Accept the priest’s wife. Ah, is _that_ how it works? Fascinating. I’m kinda curious how long this takes, compared to how long it would take an unmarried Catholic man to go through those stages if he, out of the blue, realized a calling for the priesthood. But that’s something of a digression, back to the main point. Which is that the Roman Catholic Church has been ordaining married Catholic lay persons as priests, in certain circumstances where it feels there’s a good cost/benefit ratio. It’s a rule, but it’s not exactly ironclad. And the ability and willingness of Popes to carve out exceptions to the rule certainly dispenses with the notion that celibacy is somehow necessary, for either spiritual or practical reasons, for being a priest. But for men born Catholic, unlike those who had the foresight to be born outside the Church and seek Anglican priesthood before converting, the celibacy requirement remains in place: got to keep the rubes in line. No special dispensation for _you_, good Catholic. There’s really no core of principle under all the corruption, is there? ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suppose-the-catholic-church-made-amends-for-the-scandals-what-would-you-like-see-them-do/633239/68 "2012-09-03T11:35:37Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Ah, is _that_ how it works? Fascinating. > > I’m kinda curious how long this takes, compared to how long it would take an unmarried Catholic man to go through those stages if he, out of the blue, realized a calling for the priesthood. But that’s something of a digression, back to the main point. [Here is an article in the National Catholic Register](http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/anglican-clergymen-become-catholic-priests-taking-the-final-steps-to-ordina) that gives an overview of the process. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suppose-the-catholic-church-made-amends-for-the-scandals-what-would-you-like-see-them-do/633239/69 "2012-09-03T11:59:26Z")
> [@Alley\_Dweller](#): > > [Here is an article in the National Catholic Register](http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/anglican-clergymen-become-catholic-priests-taking-the-final-steps-to-ordina) that gives an overview of the process. Wow, that’s impressive: a year, maybe a year and a half, of Saturday courses by teleconference. (_Planning_ for designing the course began in late spring of 2010; the first class graduated this past May.) Why do I suspect that your typical lay Catholic seeking ordination might have a more extensive program of study ahead of him? I’m also wondering about this whole notion of bringing entire congregations into the Catholic Church at once. For at least a year, probably longer, the former Episcopal priest isn’t an Episcopal priest anymore because he’s converted to Roman Catholicism, but he isn’t a Catholic priest yet either. Seems like the congregation is missing something in the meantime. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suppose-the-catholic-church-made-amends-for-the-scandals-what-would-you-like-see-them-do/633239/70 "2012-09-03T12:56:38Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Disband. Yes. The institution is and has been for centuries, a festering pool of corruption. It should sell all it possesses and give to the poor. I’m sure they can find a biblical cite to back them up. Then if people still need a ‘Catholic’ church they can build a new 21st century one from the roots up. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suppose-the-catholic-church-made-amends-for-the-scandals-what-would-you-like-see-them-do/633239/71 "2012-09-03T12:58:22Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I’d declare it a criminal organization, forcibly break it up, and confiscate and sell off their assets. I’d treat them much the way I’d treat a corporation found guilty of the same crimes. Plan B. ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suppose-the-catholic-church-made-amends-for-the-scandals-what-would-you-like-see-them-do/633239/72 "2012-09-03T14:15:04Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > FWIW, I would think it’s obvious that the celibacy requirement results in a RCC priesthood that’s more gay and more pedophilic than the population at large. > > Suppose you’re a devout young Roman Catholic man, sufficiently devout that a vocation to the priesthood is hardly out of the question. > > If your primary sexually attraction is toward adult women, the celibacy requirement is a pretty stiff barrier, because you’re giving up something real to join the priesthood. > > If your primary sexually attraction is toward adult men, then you think: this attraction is wrong, and I cannot yield to it. But I have little if any interest in sex with women. If I’m going to live a celibate life anyway (you’re not going to, in all likelihood, but you’re not thinking that at this juncture: you hope to do so with God’s help), there’s no reason not to join the priesthood on that account. > > The interior conversation would be similar if your primary sexual attraction was towards children of either sex. > > So the RCC priesthood is flawed by design, self-selecting for pedophiles. (And self-selecting for gays too, but I don’t regard that as a flaw. The RCC would regard it as one if they acknowledged they were doing such a self-selection, but I’m sure they’re in official denial about that.) Self-selecting for a disproportionate number of homosexuals, sure. If the statistics in [the Wikipedia article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases) are correct, more than 80% of priest sex abuse victims are male. Self-selecting for pedophiles, I’m not convinced. The same link says that the proportion of priests accused of abuse is about the same as in the population in general. So if there _are_ more pedophile priests, they’re acting on it _less_ often than one would predict. As for the OP, all I think the church should do is make sure it is cooperating fully with the law, and ensure that anyone involved with a coverup is punished appropriately - just as should happen with any big organization. People calling for a wholesale disbanding of the church and a complete about-face on its core principles are, I think, mostly just expressing their dislike of the church. (A dislike, BTW, that may be totally reasonable in its own right.) For comparison, whatever changes should be made at Penn State because of the abuse scandal there, it doesn’t make sense (to me) to argue that football should never again be played at the school, that anyone who watches a game is a fan of child rape, that the school should alter its very educational mission. Likewise with the Catholic church. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suppose-the-catholic-church-made-amends-for-the-scandals-what-would-you-like-see-them-do/633239/73 "2012-09-03T14:28:41Z")
> [@Rodgers01](#): > > For comparison, whatever changes should be made at Penn State because of the abuse scandal there, it doesn’t make sense (to me) to argue that football should never again be played at the school, that anyone who watches a game is a fan of child rape, that the school should alter its very educational mission. Likewise with the Catholic church. For a _proper_ comparison, what if there had been a problem with child sex abuse for the entire time that football program had been in existence, and there had been a systematic coverup of this the entire time? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suppose-the-catholic-church-made-amends-for-the-scandals-what-would-you-like-see-them-do/633239/74 "2012-09-03T15:04:54Z")
> [@Rodgers01](#): > > As for the OP, all I think the church should do is make sure it is cooperating fully with the law, and ensure that anyone involved with a coverup is punished appropriately - just as should happen with any big organization. As this directly includes the current Pope and I have no doubt, over the years the entire Vatican hierarchy, I really don’t think the CC is capable of reform. And that is not to get into the other legion in number crimes against humanity. I’m not seeing anyone without sin in this. Sometimes a building is so rotten you just have to knock it down. ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suppose-the-catholic-church-made-amends-for-the-scandals-what-would-you-like-see-them-do/633239/75 "2012-09-03T15:31:54Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > For a _proper_ comparison, what if there had been a problem with child sex abuse for the entire time that football program had been in existence, and there had been a systematic coverup of this the entire time? Wouldn’t change much in my mind. Football in and of itself still wouldn’t be illegitimate (at least not for that reason), nor the idea of Penn State having a football program. People involved in the abuse and coverup should still be appropriately punished. Besides, you’re saying there’s been child sex abuse and systematic coverups for the entire existence of the Catholic church, all ~2000 years of it? Well, I’m sure there _has_ been - there’s been just about everything you can imagine in so huge and widespread an institution. But it’s been far from the defining characteristic of Catholicism, yes, even in the past couple decades as more allegations have come to light. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suppose-the-catholic-church-made-amends-for-the-scandals-what-would-you-like-see-them-do/633239/76 "2012-09-03T15:50:22Z")
> [@Rodgers01](#): > > But it’s been far from the defining characteristic of Catholicism, True. Hatred of women has pretty much held that spot since Day 1, beating the loving of land, power and all things shiny by a short head. There is absolutely nothing christian about the Catholic Church. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suppose-the-catholic-church-made-amends-for-the-scandals-what-would-you-like-see-them-do/633239/77 "2012-09-03T16:06:00Z")
[Dying Cardinal tells it like it is](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/cardinal-carlo-maria-martini-his-final-interview-and-a-damning-critique-that-has-rocked-the--catholic-church-8101498.html) > [@](#): > > One of Italy’s most revered cardinals has stunned the Catholic Church by issuing a damning indictment of the institution from the grave, calling for its “transformation”. > > Hours after Milan’s former Archbishop, Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini, died on Friday at the age of 85, the leading daily paper Corriere della Sera printed his final interview, in which he attacks the Church – and by implication its current leadership – for being “200 years out of date”. > > “Our culture has aged, our churches are big and empty and the church bureaucracy rises up, our rituals and our cassocks are pompous,” the Cardinal said. “The Church must admit its mistakes and begin a radical change, starting from the Pope and the bishops. The paedophilia scandals oblige us to take a journey of transformation.” ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suppose-the-catholic-church-made-amends-for-the-scandals-what-would-you-like-see-them-do/633239/78 "2012-09-03T16:22:25Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > As this directly includes the current Pope and I have no doubt, over the years the entire Vatican hierarchy, I really don’t think the CC is capable of reform. And that is not to get into the other legion in number crimes against humanity. I’m not seeing anyone without sin in this. > > Sometimes a building is so rotten you just have to knock it down. There have been plenty of bad popes in history. A bad pope (or even, as you believe, a bad entire Vatican hierarchy) does not make the church rotten to the core. Believe it or not _most_ Catholic priests - the level of church hierarchy that the vast majority of Catholics interact with - perform their duties without molesting or covering up for anyone. > [@tagos](#): > > True. Hatred of women has pretty much held that spot since Day 1, beating the loving of land, power and all things shiny by a short head. There is absolutely nothing christian about the Catholic Church. …But then you seem to believe that even their regular duties are rotten. Okay. Different topic. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suppose-the-catholic-church-made-amends-for-the-scandals-what-would-you-like-see-them-do/633239/79 "2012-09-03T21:18:03Z")
> [@Rodgers01](#): > > all I think the church should do is make sure it is cooperating fully with the law, and ensure that anyone involved with a coverup is punished appropriately - just as should happen with any big organization. The problem with that is that the Roman Catholic Church isn’t just any big organization. It isn’t Microsoft or Pepsico. It claims special moral standing, and in fact has no reason to exist as it is if it lacks that standing. So if it isn’t going to act in a morally exemplary fashion, rather than just doing the minimum required by law, it really should disband. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suppose-the-catholic-church-made-amends-for-the-scandals-what-would-you-like-see-them-do/633239/80 "2012-09-04T00:14:18Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > The way anybody else would make amends. Prison sentences for pedophiles and the people who covered up the crimes. Yes, some people will be unpunished because they are dead. Just like with non church criminals. This is critical, but to me the single best thing they can do is to introduce transparency by removing the seal of the confession. Once this seal is broken then any priest hearing a confession of any crime would be forced to report this to the state. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suppose-the-catholic-church-made-amends-for-the-scandals-what-would-you-like-see-them-do/633239.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suppose-the-catholic-church-made-amends-for-the-scandals-what-would-you-like-see-them-do/633239.md?page=5)