# Suppose the new iraqi government tells the American forces to leave **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 23, 2004, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suppose-the-new-iraqi-government-tells-the-american-forces-to-leave/241584 "2004-04-23T05:06:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![sleeping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@sleeping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeping)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suppose-the-new-iraqi-government-tells-the-american-forces-to-leave/241584/21 "2004-04-25T15:31:41Z")
As for the Iraq war and accusations of Jewish influence, [here](http://www.tikkun.org/magazine/index.cfm/action/tikkun/mode/printer_friendly/issue/tik0303/article/030312g.html) is an article concerning the matter. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suppose-the-new-iraqi-government-tells-the-american-forces-to-leave/241584/22 "2004-04-25T18:24:39Z")
First, neither of the articles you link are very convincing on the point. I must voice a query here: What was your selection process? Were these articles generally representative of the available opinion articles on the neo-con/likud and any relation between Israeli security and the invasion of Iraq? Or did you perhaps omit a representative sample of articles? In a spirit of openess you might share your search engine and words? You seem very fond of proof. Let’s divide this into 2 parts. Part 1: what will convince you? Part 2 what has convinced me? Obviously, I can’t yet speak to Part 1. So Part 2: - Current Neo-cons formely holding likud policy positions - Explicit neo-con statements of policy on ME - Stong circumstantial case & reputable opinion articles I’ll provide links once you have shown bona fide interest. Finally on proof: I don’t think it’s necessary to prove all those things you contend. > [@](#): > > Depends what they thought of the idea in Tel Aviv. > _To me, that sounds like you’re saying that Israel is controlling U.S. policy since any plan would be contingent on Israeli opinion._ Actually that’s a fair interpretation, although not the only fair one. The ambiguity is a reflection of the difficulty in determining the quality of the relationship we are looking at. I referred to this in an earlier post. However, I hereby enter into a no-wager bet that the Bush administration will claim crowing rights for progress towards I/P peace/ improved security of Israel in the late push to the November election. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suppose-the-new-iraqi-government-tells-the-american-forces-to-leave/241584/23 "2004-04-25T19:18:02Z")
Using the neutral search terms "“neo-cons” Iraq Israel: These are the first page of hits (excluding subordinate pages) [http://www.counterpunch.org/green02282004.html](http://www.counterpunch.org/green02282004.html) [How Neoconservatives Conquered Washington and Launched a War](http://www.antiwar.com/orig/lind1.html) [How neo-cons influence the Pentagon](http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/EH08Ak01.html) [The rise of the Washington ‘neo-cons’](http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,936393,00.html) [Neo-Cons Have Hijacked US Foreign Policy](http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0910-02.htm) [Bush Stance on Syria Hit Shows Neo-Cons Still Hold Sway](http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1008-05.htm) [Neo-Cons, Fundies, Feddies,](http://www.transnational.org/pressinf/2003/pf189_NeoconsConartists.html) [Neo-cons seek to start](http://www.thornwalker.com/ditch/francis_002.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suppose-the-new-iraqi-government-tells-the-american-forces-to-leave/241584/24 "2004-04-25T21:36:10Z")
I would appreciate it if you guys would take your debate to another thread instead of sidetracking this one. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suppose-the-new-iraqi-government-tells-the-american-forces-to-leave/241584/25 "2004-04-26T00:02:34Z")
If there was a verifiable vote by the populace that demanded US withdrawal then woo hoo. We could take the money saved babysitting the region and give massive rebates for hybrid cars. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2004, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suppose-the-new-iraqi-government-tells-the-american-forces-to-leave/241584/26 "2004-04-27T00:01:53Z")
**Magiver** , your wish for what should be if the Iraqi people voted to kick us out is something I could endorse. I also like your framing the issue in terms of a popular vote. But getting back to the OP question… if that happened, what do you think the Cheney/Bush administration’s response really would be? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2004, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suppose-the-new-iraqi-government-tells-the-american-forces-to-leave/241584/27 "2004-04-27T03:45:19Z")
> [@Jomo Mojo](#): > > **Magiver** , your wish for what should be if the Iraqi people voted to kick us out is something I could endorse. I also like your framing the issue in terms of a popular vote. But getting back to the OP question… if that happened, what do you think the Cheney/Bush administration’s response really would be? The interim Iraqi government that is slated to take “power” on June 30 has been put together by Coalition-dominated negotiations and is not likely to demand a U.S. pullout, nor even to request it in the politest of terms. However, the working plan also calls for national elections in June 2005, which will bring a new Iraqi government to power, which will have considerably greater claim to legitimacy and a correspondingly broader latitude of freedom to defy the Coalition’s wishes. Assuming this comes off as planned, and assuming **that** government asks us to leave – then I am in hopes that your question will be meaningless, because the Cheney/Bush Administration will have slunk ignominously out of Washington the previous January. And the Kerry/Whoever Administration would be much more receptive to the idea of a timetable for withdrawal (as in, "Please let us get out of this damned mess **NOW!** ). ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2004, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suppose-the-new-iraqi-government-tells-the-american-forces-to-leave/241584/28 "2004-04-27T05:31:55Z")
The “damn mess” you are referring too is a very broad attack against Western culture. Withdrawing from Iraq simply means the war will be moved to another local. I also don’t favor Senator Kerry as the Democratic nominee. He strikes me as someone who takes the most popular route. JMO, but I think someone like Senator Lieberman has more focus and leadership skills than Senator Kerry. And I don’t mean that in a warring political sense because I think the events that are about to unfold will make the election process seem meaningless. Personally I would not want to be President. As I type this I’m watching Charlie Rose interview the Saudi Foreign Minister. He made a very profound statement that never dawned on me before. He said that Iraq was not created by Saddam Hussein. Saddam was created by the fractured nature of the societies that exist within Iraq (not very well paraphrased). I find this interesting because it means the Iraqi’s will have to take a personal interest in their post-Saddam lives. We cannot force them to get along with each other. To answer the question, we would be compelled to leave if asked. There aren’t enough troops in the whole United States (even with the draft) to maintain order in Iraq if everybody rises up. People don’t understand how few people it takes to cause chaos. Look at what 2 people did as snipers in the US. One of the purposes of removing Saddam (the biggest reason IMO) was to end the stalemate in the region. This is what drove OBL to attack the US in the first place. The first step in this goal took place last year when we moved out of Saudi Arabia to Al Udeid Air Base in Qatar. This allows us to maintain a presence in the region without occupying Iraq. I don’t know if anyone listens to President Bush’s speeches but this was part of a timetable he discussed for the region. If he can maintain some semblance of a timetable then maybe it will recognized for what it is, the desire for political independence of Iraqis. All of this of course, is just my 2 cents. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2004, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suppose-the-new-iraqi-government-tells-the-american-forces-to-leave/241584/29 "2004-04-27T06:15:50Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > One of the purposes of removing Saddam (the biggest reason IMO) was to end the stalemate in the region. This is what drove OBL to attack the US in the first place. Osama was pissed off about a stalemate? Not about, let’s say, Israel, various US attempts to influence the course of government in the Islamic world, corrupt Middle Eastern governments, or the ‘moral corruption’ of the West? Well, lucky we took the wind of his sails by attacking Iraq, then! Now he hasn’t got a leg to stand on. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2004, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suppose-the-new-iraqi-government-tells-the-american-forces-to-leave/241584/30 "2004-04-27T06:36:11Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The “damn mess” you are referring too is a very broad attack against Western culture. Withdrawing from Iraq simply means the war will be moved to another local. So? If no Western nation has any troops under arms in the Middle East, then Islamic radicals who want to “attack Western culture” have no **local** targets (except perhaps the Halliburton execs at the oilfields – pardon me if I won’t weep for them), and are reduced to mounting terror attacks in the Western countries themselves – which are easy to defend against, at least compared with the problem of occupying troops in Iraq trying to defend themselves and the civilians while keeping some measure of public order among people who hate them. > [@Magiver](#): > > I also don’t favor Senator Kerry as the Democratic nominee. He strikes me as someone who takes the most popular route. JMO, but I think someone like Senator Lieberman has more focus and leadership skills than Senator Kerry. Umm . . . you do understand, don’t you, that the primaries are over and Lieberman has dropped out of the race? > [@Magiver](#): > > And I don’t mean that in a warring political sense because I think the events that are about to unfold will make the election process seem meaningless. We’re definitely going to **have** an election, **Magiver,** and whether Bush or Kerry wins it really will make a big difference in Iraq – and in the rest of the world. What could possibly render any of this “meaningless”? > [@Magiver](#): > > I don’t know if anyone listens to President Bush’s speeches but this was part of a timetable he discussed for the region. If he can maintain some semblance of a timetable then maybe it will recognized for what it is, the desire for political independence of Iraqis. No, **Magiver.** The political independence of Iraq is **not** what Bush desires, no matter what he might say in his speeches. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2004, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suppose-the-new-iraqi-government-tells-the-american-forces-to-leave/241584/31 "2004-05-15T10:06:12Z")
Time to revisit this question, in the light of what Colin Powell just said: [**Powell Says Troops Would Leave Iraq if New Leaders Asked**](http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/washpost/20040515/ts_washpost/a27950_2004may14) \*Secretary of State Colin L. Powell, joined by the foreign ministers of nations making key contributions of military forces in Iraq (news - web sites), emphatically said yesterday that if the incoming Iraqi interim government ordered the departure of foreign troops after July 1, they would pack up without protest. **"We would leave** ," Powell said, noting that he was “not ducking the hypothetical, which I usually do,” to avoid confusion on the extent of the new government’s authority.\* ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2004, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suppose-the-new-iraqi-government-tells-the-american-forces-to-leave/241584/32 "2004-05-15T15:56:37Z")
> [@Jomo Mojo](#): > > Time to revisit this question, in the light of what Colin Powell just said: > > [**Powell Says Troops Would Leave Iraq if New Leaders Asked**](http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/washpost/20040515/ts_washpost/a27950_2004may14) That is indeed very interesting. I have to believe that we are 99.9999% certain that this will not come to pass. I can’t believe we have any intention of leaving Iraq soon. The result would almost certainly be civil war. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suppose-the-new-iraqi-government-tells-the-american-forces-to-leave/241584/33 "2004-05-16T01:30:07Z")
Given how it looks like Powell isn’t part of the Bush Neocon Inner Circle, this statement might be less of an affirmation of policy and more merely wishful thinking from Colin. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suppose-the-new-iraqi-government-tells-the-american-forces-to-leave/241584/34 "2004-05-16T01:47:36Z")
Well I skimmed through all the standard arguments from the tinfoil hat crowd. Firstly, no, the troops wouldn’t leave. More than likely there is going to be some deal written in that either gives the U.S. a long timetable in which it’s troops can stay in Iraq (5-10 years) or is structured like the Cuban constitution back in the day, which required mutual agreement for military withdrawal. We never said we were handing over full sovereignty so this isn’t like a big ruse. Bush and everyone associated with the administration has long said June 30 isn’t when the troops are coming home. I think the main “point” of the handover is simply small internal political matters (appropriating funds, naming streets, working out criminal codes perhaps, basically “local gov’t” stuff in the U.S.) is going to be handed over to Iraqis. The point is basically the more involved the are, the happier. It isn’t meant to be a be-all-end-all but it is supposed to be the first real Iraqi government installed since Saddam that will be taking independent actions when they don’t conflit with the U.S. military and their military objections. If you remember way back before Saddam was captured Bush said the troops would stay as “long as it takes” when asked about trying to capture Saddam after June 30. Obviously the idea of direct and immediate transfer of all government powers is ludicrous, it was never proposed, and any who expected it was creating that expectation out of nothingness. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suppose-the-new-iraqi-government-tells-the-american-forces-to-leave/241584/35 "2004-05-16T01:49:38Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Well I skimmed through all the standard arguments from the tinfoil hat crowd. > > Firstly, no, the troops wouldn’t leave. More than likely there is going to be some deal written in that either gives the U.S. a long timetable in which it’s troops can stay in Iraq (5-10 years) or is structured like the Cuban constitution back in the day, which required mutual agreement for military withdrawal. Or actually to be more realistic, American approval, not mutual ;). ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suppose-the-new-iraqi-government-tells-the-american-forces-to-leave/241584/36 "2004-05-16T02:45:40Z")
> [@Jomo Mojo](#): > > **Magiver** , your wish for what should be if the Iraqi people voted to kick us out is something I could endorse. I also like your framing the issue in terms of a popular vote. But getting back to the OP question… if that happened, what do you think the Cheney/Bush administration’s response really would be? Interesting question. [This](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120015,00.html) is what they’ve said so far, if you believe it: > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON — With American troops facing continuing battles in Iraq, the Bush administration on Friday did little to play down remarks by U.S. civilian administrator L. Paul Bremer, who said the United States would withdraw after the June 30 handover if the Iraqi Governing Council requested. > > “We don’t stay in countries where we’re not wanted. So if the provisional government, the interim government were to ask us to leave, we would leave,” Bremer told a delegation visiting Baghdad on Friday from Iraq’s Diyala province. > > Bremer added that he doesn’t think that will happen in six weeks, when the United States is also expected to declare its occupation of the country over. There are 135,000 U.S. troops deployed in Iraq. > > In Washington, Secretary of State Colin Powell, meeting with the foreign ministers of the G-8 countries, half of which are coalition members, reinforced the notion of a pullout upon request. > > “Were this interim government to say to us, ‘We really think we can handle this on our own, it would be better if you were to leave,’ we would leave,” Powell said. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suppose-the-new-iraqi-government-tells-the-american-forces-to-leave/241584/37 "2004-05-17T10:27:32Z")
I just found out about an announcement by Undersecretary of State Marc Grossman, who told reporters that \*\*U.S. forces “would not leave if asked by the interim government.” \*\* Grossman flip-flopped when he said this, because at his appearance before the House International Relations Committee he was asked, “If they ask us to leave, we will leave, will we not?” and he answered, “Yes.” After Grossman flip-flopped and said we will **not** leave if asked, Bremer announced last week that “the United States would leave Iraq if requested to do so by the new Iraqi government.” Said Bremer, “I don’t think that will happen, but obviously we don’t stay in countries where we’re not welcome.” OK, guys, when you’re done making up your minds, please get back to us. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suppose-the-new-iraqi-government-tells-the-american-forces-to-leave/241584/38 "2004-05-17T10:33:41Z")
The distinction is between a ‘new Iraqi government’ and the current IGC. (Well, the IGC minus one, it seems.) If a ‘new Iraqi goverment’ asked us to leave, purportedly we would. If the IGC asked us to leave, we would. Get a new IGC, that is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/suppose-the-new-iraqi-government-tells-the-american-forces-to-leave/241584.md?page=1)