# Supposedly sympathetic characters you just can't stand **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 28, 2005, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposedly-sympathetic-characters-you-just-cant-stand/337462 "2005-12-28T18:28:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposedly-sympathetic-characters-you-just-cant-stand/337462/81 "2005-12-30T18:18:48Z")
> [@NoClueBoy](#): > > Peggy Hill. (Die, bitch!) ((Well, she might be menat to be rage inducing, hard to tell sometimes.)) Peggy is sometimes tolerable. But **Hank** Hill must die! By some lingering and humorous method involving propane and an enema hose. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposedly-sympathetic-characters-you-just-cant-stand/337462/82 "2005-12-30T18:20:13Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Bobdage sounds more interesting. Indeed it does! Praise “Bob”! 😃 > **[Church of the SubGenius](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subgenius)** > > The Church of the SubGenius is a parody religion that satirizes better-known belief systems. It teaches a complex philosophy that focuses on J. R. "Bob" Dobbs, purportedly a salesman from the 1950s, who is revered as a prophet by the Church. SubGenius leaders have developed detailed narratives about Dobbs and his relationship to various gods and conspiracies. Their central deity, Jehovah 1, is accompanied by other gods drawn from ancient myth and popular fiction. SubGenius literature describes Iv... ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposedly-sympathetic-characters-you-just-cant-stand/337462/83 "2005-12-30T18:21:08Z")
I didn’t realize an enema hose was a “propane accessory”. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposedly-sympathetic-characters-you-just-cant-stand/337462/84 "2005-12-30T18:24:15Z")
> [@Manda JO](#): > > If your high school English teacher taught Romeo and Juliet as a love story, she didn’t do right by you: it’s a LUST story about the tragic inevitability of mixing the lust of youth with the inflexibility of age. The way Isaac Asimov described it in _Asimov’s Guide to Shakespeare,_ it’s actually about the folly of romanticism. Several clues indicate the Montague-Capulet feud is on its last legs, kept going only by a few hardline psychos like Thibault, and Romeo might just as well sue for Juliet’s hand openly. But **she** is in love with the idea of a tragic forbidden love, starcrossed lovers, two houses at variance, and Romeo makes the mistake of indulging her. Of course, any Shakespeare play works on several levels. This one can also be enjoyed as a plain ol’ tearjerker. ---
**Author:** ![Harriet\_the\_Spry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Harriet\_the\_Spry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harriet_the_Spry)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposedly-sympathetic-characters-you-just-cant-stand/337462/85 "2005-12-30T18:44:40Z")
Alex Cooper, the protagonist in Linda Fairstein’s mystery novels. Female Assistant DA in NYC, well researched books with lots of legal details and city atmosphere. But Alex will then go off on these tangents about how happy her childhood was and how wonderful her family is. I can’t help but have a big ol’ :rolleyes: there. From Tolstoy “Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.” ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposedly-sympathetic-characters-you-just-cant-stand/337462/86 "2005-12-30T18:52:14Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Yeah, she’s hot! That doesn’t mean the bloodless hellbitch has any right to live and breathe! But the whole point of Lilith’s character is that she’s NOT bloodless. The bloodlessness is a carefully constructed facade. As evidence, I give you her first appearance on the show. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposedly-sympathetic-characters-you-just-cant-stand/337462/87 "2005-12-30T18:57:55Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > But the whole point of Lilith’s character is that she’s NOT bloodless. The bloodlessness is a carefully constructed facade. As evidence, I give you her first appearance on the show. You might be thinking of her second appearance. In her first appearance, Frazier brings her to Cheers, she sits there uglifying the barstool and disparagingly psychoanalyzes everything he does, and she bails while he’s out of the room, leaving the message that she does not want to see Frazier again except professionally. In her second appearance (different episode), Lilith is somehow in the bar again, Diane gets her to take the bobby pins out of her hair, Frazier sees she’s – gasp! beautiful! – and things heat up. And while he keeps talking and talking about how he’s going to kiss her, **she** kisses **him**. But in light of her later (lack of) character development, I never bought it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposedly-sympathetic-characters-you-just-cant-stand/337462/88 "2005-12-30T19:00:22Z")
> [@Harriet the Spry](#): > > From Tolstoy “Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.” I think Tolstoy got that backwards. Dysfunctional families fall into a limited number of familiar patterns; happy families offer an endless breadth of variety. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposedly-sympathetic-characters-you-just-cant-stand/337462/89 "2005-12-30T19:19:20Z")
Hmmm. I remember her first appearance was that Frazier was going on some talk show and was complaining that the other opposing guest was this harridan he knew by reputation but couldn’t stand. He goes on the show (as the gang at Cheers watches, of course) and he and Lilith have an instant and uncontrollable attraction for each other, and they practically have sex on air. THEN he brings her to the bar, where her ice bitch persona is back in place. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposedly-sympathetic-characters-you-just-cant-stand/337462/90 "2005-12-30T20:25:58Z")
I LIKE her ice bitch persona, masking a passionate nature underneath. What? No-she doesn’t resemble me in the least! Um… :o (this guy does not demonstrate embarassment for me at all, btw) ---
**Author:** ![drm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e57/32.png) [@drm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drm)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposedly-sympathetic-characters-you-just-cant-stand/337462/91 "2005-12-30T20:39:38Z")
> [@Push You Down](#): > > Socially retarded doesn’t make one a jerk. He’s actually a pretty decent guy just abrasive and dumb. He befriends Pedro and defends him and puts himself out there to help Pedro win the election. He clearly likes the girl but has no clue how to interact with her. > “Do you drink one percent because you think you’re fat? Because you could drink two percent if you wanted to.” is his way of telling her she’s pretty. > > And Luke Skywalker is only a whiny hick until he leaves Tattoine… he’s a badass by Jedi. First of all, there is nothing badass about Luke Skywalker. His father reaches out and what does he do. No, I don’t WANT to take over the universe with you. I think it’s wrong! (okay so that was a joke but I still think he’s a baby) As for Napoleon, maybe jerk isn’t the right word but there is still something about him that puts me off. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposedly-sympathetic-characters-you-just-cant-stand/337462/92 "2005-12-30T21:12:21Z")
Moderator notes: I have disabled the link in **Ponder** ’s post, because we’ve had problems in the past with that website (“Superdickery”) dropping unwanted presents – usually spyware – on those who visit. If you want to check it out, that’s fine, I’ve left the URL, but just tread warily. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposedly-sympathetic-characters-you-just-cant-stand/337462/93 "2005-12-30T21:41:45Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Um… :o (this guy does not demonstrate embarassment for me at all, btw) Me neither – I can never decide if it’s blushing or yawning. ---
**Author:** ![Chanteuse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de053/32.png) [@Chanteuse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chanteuse)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposedly-sympathetic-characters-you-just-cant-stand/337462/94 "2005-12-30T22:06:43Z")
> [@zamboniracer](#): > > Radar O’Reilly in the later years of _MASH_ the tv show. He digressed from a shrewd manipulator of Lt. Col. Henry Blake to having the characteristics of a cloistered nun. As anyone who knows farm boys can tell you, they treat farm animals as animals to be used for work or raised for food, not as beloved sissified pets. A real Iowa farm boy would never have complained about slaughtering a lamb for food, he would’ve said, “Where’s the mint jelly?” Agreed. I can’t even watch the rerun of that episode (“Private Charles Lamb”) because it irritates me no end. Those people\* dealt with untold horrors every day working in a war hospital, and weren’t exactly dining at the Ritz (hell, they weren’t even getting a diet up to _McDonald’s_ standards). The idea that someone would go all hearts and flowers over a lamb and deprive his comrades of one of the finest meals they’d had in months just makes me go :mad: :mad: :mad: . Yeah, yeah, I need to get a life! 😃 _And I mean actual doctors and nurses, not the M_A_S_H characters. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposedly-sympathetic-characters-you-just-cant-stand/337462/95 "2005-12-30T23:44:52Z")
> [@Reepicheep](#): > > As do Scarlett and Rett. That was the point of the novel, none of them are sympathetic characters. When I wrote a paper stating that, in 12th grade, I got a B and none of the girls in my English class would speak to me for two weeks. I can’t stand anyone in GWTW. I hate the movie so much that I didn’t bother with the book. Also: Heathcliff and Cathy in **Wuthering Heights**. God, what a couple of miserable, selfish, mean sucks. Maybe they weren’t supposed to be sympathetic either, in which case they certainly succeeded. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposedly-sympathetic-characters-you-just-cant-stand/337462/96 "2005-12-31T00:06:32Z")
Dimmesdale in _The Scarlet Letter_. Unlike Romeo, I really do think we are suppossed to sympathize with Dimmesdale: he’s simply weak, not evil. But I can’t do it. His spinelessness grates on me. On the other hand, I ache for Daisy in _The Great Gatsby_, even though she guilty of the same utter lack of charecter. I don’t know why: perhaps I can forgive her her hopelessness in a Modernist setting. Also, come to think of it, Daisy never seemed to feel she was the only one to ever suffer: I think it is Dimmesdale’s attitufe that somehow his cross to bear is uniquely heavy that really drives me mad. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposedly-sympathetic-characters-you-just-cant-stand/337462/97 "2005-12-31T01:17:57Z")
> [@Manda JO](#): > > Dimmesdale in _The Scarlet Letter_. Don’t forget Spiny Norman. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposedly-sympathetic-characters-you-just-cant-stand/337462/98 "2005-12-31T02:07:53Z")
> [@BMalion](#): > > Are you a 14 year old girl? A 32-year old nerdy guy. So, as measured by emotional maturity, pretty much 🙂 > [@](#): > > Jack and Rose were vile, lying, cheating shallow people How so? Jack was a poor guy who accidentally saved a girl’s life, then had the hots for her, then tried to convince her not to marry her fiance. I think it’s pretty clear that he honestly believed he was acting for the best. He also (gasp!) stole a guy’s coat so he could sneak in and talk to her. She was impetuous and artsy and sensitive and fell in love with the poor artist type. They were perhaps (to quote Robert Jordan) a bit wool-headed, and make some bad decisions while being happy young people in lust/love, but how are either of them vile? > [@](#): > > > [@me](#): > > > > And also, bear in mind that (in at least one valid way of looking at the movie) everything that we see in the past, we see through Rose’s eyes and memories, so it makes sense that Cal is 100% villainous, and Jack is 100% saintly and pure. > > Is this seriously the Titanic apologists party-line? That the characters are one-dimensional and given to schmaltzy dialogue because the whole thing was seen through Rose’s eyes? Well, (a) I don’t see why people who like a popular and critically-well-received (initially, before the backlash kicked in) movie are “apologists”, and (b) I don’t think there’s a “party line”. I’ve certainly never read the secret “how to defend **Titanic (The Best Movie Ever)** from its detractors” thread. Anyhow, I actually just came up with that theory moments before posting it, as it occurred to me that two quite reasonable criticisms against the film are that both Jack and Cal are quite one dimensional, in opposing directions, whereas Rose is the most fully fleshed out character; which makes sense if the whole thing is seen through her memories. > [@](#): > > And even if it is so, we’re obviously still supposed to be sympathetic to the “Rosed up” version of Jack. Which I wasn’t. Arguing about **Titanic** is a bit pointless, isn’t it? Let me just say this: I saw it the weekend it opened, before knowing it would make a zillion dollars, before knowing that it would make James Cameron the king of the world, before knowing that I would get awful sick of Leonardo Di Caprio (and even SICKER of people talking about how sick they were of Leonardo Di Caprio), and I was utterly sucked into the epic and tragic story and wrung totally emotionally dry. And I talked to various friends, of varying levels of erudition, and my VERY sophisticated Shakespeare-and-opera-loving parents, and everyone who saw it before the backlash started thoroughly enjoyed it. Take that for what it’s worth. And if you actually have a desire to chat on (and why not, I mean, that’s what we’re here for, right?), what exactly about Jack makes you hate him so much? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposedly-sympathetic-characters-you-just-cant-stand/337462/99 "2005-12-31T02:36:46Z")
I can’t remember the character’s name, but the protagonist from _The Rubyfruit Jungle_. What a loathsome, self-centered, hypocritical woman. I titled the college paper I wrote about it, “Clear-Cutting the Rubyfruit Jungle.” ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2005, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposedly-sympathetic-characters-you-just-cant-stand/337462/100 "2005-12-31T02:54:32Z")
I vote for the Corleone family in Godfather I and II. I know they’re presented frankly as Mafiosa, but we’re also supposed to sympathise with them as human beings caught up in an immoral business. But I just couldn’t get past all the awful things they do as a matter of course in their biz. For me, a happy ending for Godfather II would be that the hit on the Corleone compound succeeds, and every last one of them is machine-gunned to death and maybe garroted a little, too. Failing that, a successful sting operation results in a gunfight in which most of them are killed and the rest spend the remainder of their lives in prison. I’d be cheering and clapping for those endings. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposedly-sympathetic-characters-you-just-cant-stand/337462.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supposedly-sympathetic-characters-you-just-cant-stand/337462.md?page=6)