# Supreme Court \[declines to hear\] same sex marriage cases.\[plus further developments (Ed.)\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 6, 2014, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-declines-to-hear-same-sex-marriage-cases-plus-further-developments-ed/700544 "2014-10-06T13:50:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 43
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-declines-to-hear-same-sex-marriage-cases-plus-further-developments-ed/700544/841 "2015-06-30T17:38:04Z")
I want to know why it’s “deeply held religious beliefs”. Why does religion suddenly become that important. I have deeply held beliefs but am not religious, so do my beliefs do not count? What if your deeply held religious beliefs were suddenly changed. Like you are a member of the Episcopal Church and were against gay marriage, but then they changed their mind (in 2012) and are now for it? Can you no longer hold the belief since your religion changed? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-declines-to-hear-same-sex-marriage-cases-plus-further-developments-ed/700544/842 "2015-06-30T17:41:38Z")
Deeply held religious beliefs are important because the law says so. And the law says so because the people said so. It’s not logical, but it’s the rule we have. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Exactly. And if they couldn’t do that, they wouldn’t have applied for the job. > > We won this battle, **RNALTB** , and we can choose to be gracious winners or not. I choose the former. That is all. That’s fair enough, but I seriously doubt that anyone whose religious beliefs ostensibly require them to deny (or at least not personally deliver) marriage licenses to same-sex couples is going to be mollified by a couple of months to find a new job. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-declines-to-hear-same-sex-marriage-cases-plus-further-developments-ed/700544/843 "2015-06-30T17:48:30Z")
Why would you find another job, when you can play martyr on some crowdfunding site and take a couple of years off? If you’re the first one forced out of your job, conservative outrage will pay way better than a county clerkship. If you’re not first, though, you’re out of luck. Better hope the clerk at the unemployment office doesn’t have a deeply held religious objection to bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-declines-to-hear-same-sex-marriage-cases-plus-further-developments-ed/700544/844 "2015-06-30T18:09:35Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What I am proposing doesn’t penalize anyone. And I want to do it because I want to live in a society where graciousness wins the day over vindictiveness. Think of it as a Buddhist thing. It penalizes the people who want but can’t get licenses, at least until their local clerks get over their butt-hurts and return to doing their jobs. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-declines-to-hear-same-sex-marriage-cases-plus-further-developments-ed/700544/845 "2015-06-30T18:22:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What I am proposing doesn’t penalize anyone. And I want to do it because I want to live in a society where graciousness wins the day over vindictiveness. Think of it as a Buddhist thing. Of course it penalizes people. It penalizes taxpayers who are footing the bill for the employment. It penalizes people who want to get married. It penalizes the other clerks who have to pick up the slack (or the supervisor who has to do the same). And no one but you would think of it as “graciousness” versus “vindictiveness.” The recipients would view it as vindictiveness, just delayed. And everyone else would just view it as a pointless appeasement of a bigoted worldview. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-declines-to-hear-same-sex-marriage-cases-plus-further-developments-ed/700544/846 "2015-06-30T18:23:45Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > Why would you find another job, when you can play martyr on some crowdfunding site and take a couple of years off? I think that pizza shop in Indiana got most of \*that \*source of easy money. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-declines-to-hear-same-sex-marriage-cases-plus-further-developments-ed/700544/847 "2015-06-30T18:30:23Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Of course it penalizes people. It penalizes taxpayers who are footing the bill for the employment. It penalizes people who want to get married. It penalizes the other clerks who have to pick up the slack (or the supervisor who has to do the same). And no one but you would think of it as “graciousness” versus “vindictiveness.” The recipients would view it as vindictiveness, just delayed. And everyone else would just view it as a pointless appeasement of a bigoted worldview. Yes, think of the couple who have been together for years, and now the one with the house, kids etc… is in their name and on their deathbed. Because of bigotry they have no survivorship rights. Their house their children etc… will either be at the whims of the probate court or the families which often are just as bigoted as the clerks. But some how the clerks bigotry and refusal to do their job overrules the rights of those people. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-declines-to-hear-same-sex-marriage-cases-plus-further-developments-ed/700544/848 "2015-06-30T18:56:42Z")
Huh, being right isn’t enough. Apparently we also have to rub our opponents’ noses in their wrongness. Or anyone else who isn’t as right as we are. This is why we can’t have unicorns with our rainbows. ---
**Author:** ![Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-declines-to-hear-same-sex-marriage-cases-plus-further-developments-ed/700544/849 "2015-06-30T19:15:05Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Sure you do, if it’s a “kind” that hasn’t received public acceptance. In fact, it’s still legal to “not serve” gays in some states. And if you are a county clerk in a state that doesn’t allow cousins to marry, you get say it to any two cousins who come in for a marriage license. Not only get to, are required to. Even if you aren’t personally opposed to cousin marriage. Even if you are married to your cousin (in another state but recognized under Article 4, or perhaps grandfathered in, so to speak). Because it’s about the law. The law in Texas – the law in every state – recognizes same-sex marriages on the same basis as different-sex marriages. The clerks are expected to follow the law just as the clerk married to their cousin is expected to follow the law in denying a license to cousins who want to get married. I understand the desire to be a gracious winner, but this is like expecting black families in Topeka to say “oh, of course we don’t exect you to actually intgrate the schools, we just wanted the moral victory,” and black passengers to ride in the back of the bus voluntarily. I’m all for graciousness. Therefore, I decree that when a same-sex couple goes to get a marriage license, they are not allowed to taunt the clerk, or dance around “ha ha, you have to give us a license whether you want to or not. Where’s your god now?” But they’re certainly entitled to actually get the licence today, not three or four (or 36 or 48 or 300) months from now. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > We are witness to one of the fastest social changes in our nation’s history. A few months accommodation to those we disagree with won’t kill us. > [@someone whose name escapes me](#): > > For years now I have heard the word “wait.” […] This “wait” has almost always meant “never.” It has been a tranquilizing thalidomide, relieving the emotional stress for a moment, only to give birth to an ill-formed infant of frustration. We must come to see with the distinguished jurist of yesterday that “justice too long delayed is justice denied.” ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-declines-to-hear-same-sex-marriage-cases-plus-further-developments-ed/700544/850 "2015-06-30T20:46:36Z")
I, for one, think graciousness is overrated ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-declines-to-hear-same-sex-marriage-cases-plus-further-developments-ed/700544/851 "2015-06-30T20:51:46Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I, for one, think graciousness is overrated Graciousness is one of those things that people who had no graciousness in ascendancy start bleating about when their star begins to fall. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-declines-to-hear-same-sex-marriage-cases-plus-further-developments-ed/700544/852 "2015-06-30T21:08:26Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I, for one, think graciousness is overrated It’s a vital social good. Manners maketh man. Etiquette is what keeps us from being monsters. However, the law is also a social good, and these clerks, in breaking it, deserve about the same consideration and grace as any other criminal. The policeman will put his hand on your head to keep you from bumping into the door frame of the police car when he arrests you. That’s grace and consideration. But you still go to jail. (Hey, I have a strong religious objection to going to jail. So I can rob liquor stores, and you can’t put me behind bars, right?) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-declines-to-hear-same-sex-marriage-cases-plus-further-developments-ed/700544/853 "2015-06-30T22:20:00Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Graciousness is one of those things that people who had no graciousness in ascendancy start bleating about when their star begins to fall. In this case, it’s the last straw available to cling to in a desperate effort to smugly, benignly claim that both sides are at fault for something, tsk tsk. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-declines-to-hear-same-sex-marriage-cases-plus-further-developments-ed/700544/854 "2015-06-30T23:29:46Z")
> [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](#): > > I’m all for graciousness. Therefore, I decree that when a same-sex couple goes to get a marriage license, they are not allowed to taunt the clerk, or dance around “ha ha, you have to give us a license whether you want to or not. Where’s your god now?” But they’re certainly entitled to actually get the licence today, not three or four (or 36 or 48 or 300) months from now. Well said. My prediction, actually, is that after a couple of days of hemming and hawing, the vast majority of clerks will come around and start giving out licenses to same sex couples. In all the populous counties of Texas it’s already happened. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-declines-to-hear-same-sex-marriage-cases-plus-further-developments-ed/700544/855 "2015-07-01T01:30:38Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > My prediction, actually, is that after a couple of days of hemming and hawing, the vast majority of clerks will come around and start giving out licenses to same sex couples. In all the populous counties of Texas it’s already happened. I tend to agree with that. I wouldn’t be surprised if their reticence fades when they face the reality of giving up a cushy government job with good benefits for something with considerably more risk. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-declines-to-hear-same-sex-marriage-cases-plus-further-developments-ed/700544/856 "2015-07-01T03:54:05Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > However, the law is also a social good, and these clerks, in breaking it, deserve about the same consideration and grace as any other criminal. The policeman will put his hand on your head to keep you from bumping into the door frame of the police car when he arrests you. That’s grace and consideration. But you still go to jail. > > (Hey, I have a strong religious objection to going to jail. So I can rob liquor stores, and you can’t put me behind bars, right?) I don’t think the analogy is apt ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-declines-to-hear-same-sex-marriage-cases-plus-further-developments-ed/700544/857 "2015-07-01T07:24:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I tend to agree with that. I wouldn’t be surprised if their reticence fades when they face the reality of giving up a cushy government job with good benefits for something with considerably more risk. Today I’m starting to see some reports of a few county clerks – very few-- who are resigning rather than licensing same-sex marriages. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-declines-to-hear-same-sex-marriage-cases-plus-further-developments-ed/700544/858 "2015-07-01T12:08:22Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > Today I’m starting to see some reports of a few county clerks – very few-- who are resigning rather than licensing same-sex marriages. That’s their right, and although I don’t agree with their viewpoint it’s a far more respectable course of action than refusing to issue the licenses. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-declines-to-hear-same-sex-marriage-cases-plus-further-developments-ed/700544/859 "2015-07-01T13:28:05Z")
Here’s the part that makes no sense to me, don’t all of these Christian objectors, sit in church on Sunday beside bankers, and plumbers, and gas station owners who daily and routinely serve homosexuals? I mean, think about it, every retail store, every service, simply must be serving gays and gay couples without any seeming negative reflection on their piety or mortal souls. But with anything wedding related it’s somehow different. What about builders, those gay couples must live somewhere. What about their grocers? Etc, etc. It makes me think they want them back in the closet. Because then it’s okay to take their money for anything! ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-declines-to-hear-same-sex-marriage-cases-plus-further-developments-ed/700544/860 "2015-07-01T13:42:30Z")
> [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](#): > > …But they’re certainly entitled to actually get the licence today, not three or four (or 36 or 48 or 300) months from now. Same-sex couples are entitled to a marriage license on the same terms as opposite-sex couples, nothing more and nothing less. In some states that means a [waiting period](http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/chart-state-marriage-license-blood-29019.html), usually 3 to 5 days. Mom wants equality, not a special status. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-declines-to-hear-same-sex-marriage-cases-plus-further-developments-ed/700544.md?page=42) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-declines-to-hear-same-sex-marriage-cases-plus-further-developments-ed/700544.md?page=44)