# Supreme Court disses AgDept, shields raisin farmers **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 8, 2015, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-disses-agdept-shields-raisin-farmers/730381 "2015-09-08T22:00:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-disses-agdept-shields-raisin-farmers/730381/61 "2015-09-10T18:30:58Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > This is not the tragedy of the commons it is cartel behavior. It is every business’s best interests to keep the prices of their products high. It is in every consumer’s best interest to keep the prices low. Government programs to keep prices high are a conspiracy against consumers. Since poor people spend a greater percentage of their income on food they are the ones hurt the most. Not surprisingly, farm subsidies and mandatory cooperatives are ways that government helps the rich and powerful at the expense of the poor and unorganized. No, I meant that all the farmers producing as much as they can, despite knowing that potentially it could drop prices for everyone reminds me of a tragedy of the commons type situation. Not exactly, but it’s reminiscent. And no, government programs to keep prices high aren’t so much a conspiracy against consumers- it’s more of a way to prop up farmers than anything else, and the government does do what someone else said and buy up surpluses- where do you think “Government cheese” came from? They even sell it to the poor at a discount or give it outright. If it’s screwing any consumers, it’s screwing people like us who can afford to pay for food. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-disses-agdept-shields-raisin-farmers/730381/62 "2015-09-10T19:13:32Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Cite, please. You can’t see how keeping crop prices from crashing doesn’t benefit farmers as a whole? Such programs are very often against the _individual_ interests of farmers because growing and selling as much as possible is always going to maximize their revenue, but they’re essential to keeping the farm industry as a whole economically healthy. You can certainly argue against the efficacy of any one particular price control program, but I think the now 80-odd years we’ve had without the sorts of major agricultural price crashes that used to come every decade or so from the 1860’s through the 1930’s speaks for itself. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-disses-agdept-shields-raisin-farmers/730381/63 "2015-09-10T19:25:28Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > You can’t see how keeping crop prices from crashing doesn’t benefit farmers as a whole? Such programs are very often against the _individual_ interests of farmers because growing and selling as much as possible is always going to maximize their revenue, but they’re essential to keeping the farm industry as a whole economically healthy. > > You can certainly argue against the efficacy of any one particular price control program, but I think the now 80-odd years we’ve had without the sorts of major agricultural price crashes that used to come every decade or so from the 1860’s through the 1930’s speaks for itself. The government isnt allowed to seize property without compensation. Also the program only applied to three minor crops. I dont see how it had any effect on agriculture overall. It also looks like there are price crashes right now: [Big drops in prices for crops make it tough down on the farm - ABC News](http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=6092444) ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-disses-agdept-shields-raisin-farmers/730381/64 "2015-09-10T19:39:18Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > The government isnt allowed to seize property without compensation. > > Also the program only applied to three minor crops. I dont see how it had any effect on agriculture overall. > > It also looks like there are price crashes right now: [Big drops in prices for crops make it tough down on the farm - ABC News](http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=6092444) Firstly, that ain’t a price crash. Not by historic standards. Losing 50% off all-time high prices definitely hurts, but the pre-1930’s crashes you were often talking about certain crops becoming virtually worthless. And, yeah, obviously _this particular program_ might not have had much effect and may have had some issues (with constitutionality at the very least) but it’s just a tiny part of the whole overall scheme of the government stabilizing prices which unquestionably helps farmers. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-disses-agdept-shields-raisin-farmers/730381/65 "2015-09-10T20:16:49Z")
> [@bump](#): > > No, I meant that all the farmers producing as much as they can, despite knowing that potentially it could drop prices for everyone reminds me of a tragedy of the commons type situation. Not exactly, but it’s reminiscent. > > And no, government programs to keep prices high aren’t so much a conspiracy against consumers- it’s more of a way to prop up farmers than anything else, and the government does do what someone else said and buy up surpluses- where do you think “Government cheese” came from? They even sell it to the poor at a discount or give it outright. If it’s screwing any consumers, it’s screwing people like us who can afford to pay for food. If everyone in my profession quit except me I could charge alot more for my services. That is different than a commons situation where a resource is actually gone. Toyota making as many cars as it cans makes the price of Fords drop, Samsung making all the cell phones it can makes the cost of I phones drop, Orville Redenbacher making all the popcorn it can makes the price of PopSecret drop, McDonalds producing as many hamburgers as it can makes the price of Burger King drop. That is called supply and demand. It does not mean the government should pay Toyota to stop making cars. If a farmer growing all the crops they can puts another farmer out of business that means the other farmer should find a new line of work, not that the government should form a cartel. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-disses-agdept-shields-raisin-farmers/730381/66 "2015-09-10T20:22:20Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > You can’t see how keeping crop prices from crashing doesn’t benefit farmers as a whole? Such programs are very often against the _individual_ interests of farmers because growing and selling as much as possible is always going to maximize their revenue, but they’re essential to keeping the farm industry as a whole economically healthy. > > You can certainly argue against the efficacy of any one particular price control program, but I think the now 80-odd years we’ve had without the sorts of major agricultural price crashes that used to come every decade or so from the 1860’s through the 1930’s speaks for itself. Why is it the government’s business to keep the farm industry economically healthy? Isn’t that the business of the farm industry. My industry would be alot healthier economically if the government mandated a cartel where the goal was to keep prices high. So would every other industry. The price of oil has dropped dramatically from a couple of years ago, should the government organizing the big oil companies so they can get prices back up? If prices for certain foods fall periodically, that is a good thing. Lower food prices mean people eat cheaper and have more money to spend on other things improving the entire economy. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-disses-agdept-shields-raisin-farmers/730381/67 "2015-09-10T20:34:02Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Why is it the government’s business to keep the farm industry economically healthy? It’s because the citizens of this country need food to eat, or they die. Having a stable food supply is good for everyone, people can count on the price of food staying relatively stable, they can count on food being available at a reasonable price. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-disses-agdept-shields-raisin-farmers/730381/68 "2015-09-10T21:58:28Z")
“_Let them eat cellphones._” ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-disses-agdept-shields-raisin-farmers/730381/69 "2015-09-10T22:54:26Z")
Didn’t the last farm bill eliminate direct subsidies for the minority of crops that previously received them? ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2015, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-disses-agdept-shields-raisin-farmers/730381/70 "2015-09-11T01:22:23Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Why is it the government’s business to keep the farm industry economically healthy? Isn’t that the business of the farm industry. My industry would be alot healthier economically if the government mandated a cartel where the goal was to keep prices high. So would every other industry. The price of oil has dropped dramatically from a couple of years ago, should the government organizing the big oil companies so they can get prices back up? If prices for certain foods fall periodically, that is a good thing. Lower food prices mean people eat cheaper and have more money to spend on other things improving the entire economy. Well, firstly, it’s not like the government is keeping prices high per se, mostly they try to just keep them stable. It’s not like OPEC where their main goal for target prices is maximizing profit. At least with the way it’s supposed to work, they shouldn’t be meddling much when prices are high, just letting the farmers naturally produce more and bring them down. Another issue (along with the whole “nobody wants people starving in the street” issue) is that just letting farmers go bankrupt and abandon the land en masse is really bad for the land. The Dust Bowl was basically a man-made disaster caused by huge amounts of acreage ceasing to be under irrigation and cultivation due to the crash in agricultural prices. If you just let farms go fallow, there’s no guarantee that the land will be in any condition to be farmed when prices inevitably shoot back up. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2015, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-disses-agdept-shields-raisin-farmers/730381/71 "2015-09-11T02:32:28Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > Well, firstly, it’s not like the government is keeping prices high per se, mostly they try to just keep them stable. It’s not like OPEC where their main goal for target prices is maximizing profit. At least with the way it’s supposed to work, they shouldn’t be meddling much when prices are high, just letting the farmers naturally produce more and bring them down. > > Another issue (along with the whole “nobody wants people starving in the street” issue) is that just letting farmers go bankrupt and abandon the land en masse is really bad for the land. The Dust Bowl was basically a man-made disaster caused by huge amounts of acreage ceasing to be under irrigation and cultivation due to the crash in agricultural prices. If you just let farms go fallow, there’s no guarantee that the land will be in any condition to be farmed when prices inevitably shoot back up. Didn’t those massive dust storms have something to do with that? ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2015, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-disses-agdept-shields-raisin-farmers/730381/72 "2015-09-11T03:12:47Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Didn’t those massive dust storms have something to do with that? The dust storms were caused by land that had been previously irrigated and farmed being abandoned due to low crop prices. Much of the land in the Great Plains had some stored moisture that was released when it was plowed over; after that, it was easy to pump up water from the local aquifer to irrigate it, but once farmers left and stopped doing that there was nothing holding the soil to the ground and it blew away ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2015, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-disses-agdept-shields-raisin-farmers/730381/73 "2015-09-11T03:19:15Z")
Poor land management also played a part. There was also little cash in circulation so there was no one to sell to. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2015, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-disses-agdept-shields-raisin-farmers/730381/74 "2015-09-11T05:50:23Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Didn’t the last farm bill eliminate direct subsidies for the minority of crops that previously received them? It eliminated direct subsidies and then [replaced them](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-09-09/farmers-boost-revenue-sowing-subsidies-for-crop-insurance) with a subsidized insurance program that will probably, in the end, cost more. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2015, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-disses-agdept-shields-raisin-farmers/730381/75 "2015-09-11T06:06:16Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > The fundamental problem is that individual farmers have limited control over how much they actually produce (given weather, etc.) and so the agricultural market never really works like it should along simple supply-and-demand lines. > > The necessity of paying farmers not to grow or buying and destroying crops or taking crops and using them as food aid or whatever is this: if you just let the prices go wherever the free market takes them, you’re eventually going to get a feedback cycle like **bump** describes where prices are tanking but individual farmers have to up production to cover their expenses. That leads to price crashes and mass bankruptcies, which means farmers no longer working the land. What do you think that does to food prices over the next few years? > > The government _has_ to meddle with crop prices somehow if we want a dependable food supply. There was an interesting case study a few decades ago in New Zealand. New Zealand once had a massive, expensive program of farm subsidies, and the government and farmers defended it with the same arguments that they do in the USA and other wealthy nations. If we didn’t have subsidies, prices would swing out of control, farmers would go out of business, nature would shrivel up and we’d all starve to death. Nonetheless, in 1984, New Zealand eliminated farm subsidies in 1984, ignoring the doomsday warnings. You won’t believe what happened next. [Prices remained moderate and stable, virtually no farms went out of business, farmers shifted to healthier products and more environmentally friendly methods, the taxpayers of New Zealand saved a ton of money, and everyone was happy.](http://epi.yale.edu/case-study/removal-agricultural-subsidies-new-zealand) Big agricultural corporations, needless to say, have a very strong financial motivation to want the subsidies to continue. Thus they spend a lot of money trying to lobby Congress and argue that the subsidies are vitally important, and that horrible things will happen if prices are determined by the free market. All available evidence suggests that this is just scaremongering, and that in reality we could eliminate subsidies and price supports without any sorrow, and indeed with a great deal of joy. It’s worth remembering that the USA somehow function with no Department of Agriculture for almost a century, and for several generations after that with only very small subsidies. Yet somehow, rather than mass starvation and farms being wiped out of existence, our country became the biggest producer and exporter of food in human history during that time period, and one of the few places that didn’t periodically experience mass starvation. It’s almost as if subsidies and price supports aren’t really necessary at all. ---
**Author:** ![svd678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@svd678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/svd678)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2015, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-disses-agdept-shields-raisin-farmers/730381/76 "2015-09-11T15:04:59Z")
Most, if not all, of the farmers I have known have been devout Republicans and resented govt. reports, regulations, etc. It’s just that if they didn’t participate they’d go broke. Actually, much of the onerous laws have been lobbied for by enormous multi-national corporations and help the family farmer, an endangered species, little or not at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-disses-agdept-shields-raisin-farmers/730381.md?page=3)