Supreme Court has overturned Roe v. Wade (No longer a draft as of 06-24-2022.)

The counterargument is basically the same as the kidney case. If you consent to giving up your kidney, you don’t get to ask for it back. So you’re left with arguing whether engaging in sex constitutes implicit consent to anything else, and so on. Those can be argued as well, but it’s not quite as simple as you’re making it sound.

Who is “we”? A number of countries have made organ donation opt-out. If you say nothing, your organs will be donated by default.

And bodily autonomy, while important, is not a complete universal. Someone above gave the example above that if you hand someone a baby (or any valuable thing), they don’t just get to say “no touching” and drop the baby on the concrete. We expect some minimal level of care, even if that means compelling you to an action.

That’s not to say it rises nearly to the level of carrying a pregnancy; the point is just that we don’t expect absolute autonomy.

The United States, where Roe v Wade was just overturned. (The topic of the thread?)

Yeah but you don’t have to sacrifice your body to hold a baby. (Unless it’s like ‘We’re going to go ahead and cut your arms off to set up a nice little cradle for this baby here. Don’t worry, eminent domain.’)

I guess the draft is an example of compelling Americans to put their body on the line. Is that the only example? Even if so, unfortunately, it’s not a bad one.

But you can legally change your mind up until the very last second, as they’re wheeling you into the operating room, can’t you?

The only reason you can’t take it back after donating it is the same reason you can’t be compelled to donate it in the first place.

Sure, but if we’re debating the morality of the situation, I’d think we’d want a broader perspective. The Euro nations aren’t some backwards authoritarian state; they’re generally thought of as fairly free. We don’t have to emulate them, but they offer a perspective worth considering. And in any case, the US may at some point switch to opt-out donation.

Well, there’s imprisonment. Outside of crimes? There are a bunch of negative laws, such as against suicide and drug use. The draft is certainly a good example of physical coercion in a way unrelated to a crime, though.

Laws against suicide is a good one. I don’t know if it would be useful for an argument either for or against, but it is an actual example of the state telling us what we’re allowed to do with our bodies.

But wait, is suicide illegal? Assisted suicide, yes, but just a lone person? I’m not sure it is.

The whole idea of the ‘you’re a danger to yourself or others’ psych hold kind of suggests it is.

Is it? I genuinely wonder if there’s ever been a case deciding one way or another. One can imagine a hypothetical, like where you’ve agreed to be “hooked up” to someone else (for some reason, in philosophy courses, it’s always a famous violinist) and where if you ask to be disconnected the person dies.

A conjoined twin might ask to be separated, even if it meant the death of the other. I’d be surprised if a case like that ever made it to a court, though.

Looking it up, it appears that the last couple states with laws against suicide removed them. A few decades earlier, a fair number of states had laws against suicide. So it appears that my comment is out of date, but historically it wasn’t uncommon for it to be a crime.

The big advantage of the organ donation argument is that it could happen to a man in a way that pregnancy never could.

I’m imagining a case where some psycho steals your kidney and you miraculously survive. Would the courts compel whoever bought it from the black market (and is presumably using it in their body) to give it back to you?

My head is spinning just trying to imagine how that case would go.

EDIT: Just thought of a counter to the draft argument: The United States government is not a person. The argument is that no person has the right to another person’s body.

Damn it, that doesn’t work either. The government is who compels you to not get an abortion, not the fetus. Shoot.

There are lots of procedures for which there are both elective and health reasons, but the elective options are limited by the state. Like with kidney removal, there has to be a medically justified reason, such as it’s cancerous or you are donating it. You can’t get it taken out just because you don’t want it in your body anymore. But there, the state is somewhat justified in limiting elective kidney removal since there can be serious, long term health consequences to having a kidney removed. Abortion doesn’t have the same kinds of health risks, so the state doesn’t have that same justification (long term health risks). Abortion would be more compared to something like mole removal, which has both health and elective reasons. Some moles are cancerous and are removed for health risks, but other moles are unsightly and are removed for aesthetic reasons. The state wouldn’t really be justified in saying you could only have cancerous moles removed and had to leave the others alone.

I’ve been Facebooking on challenging anti-choice folks on their organ donor cards, and whether they donate blood, bone marrow, a kidney and liver parts (all of which are safer than pregnancy).

I’m considering pivoting on the above to suggesting laws requiring it - if we can force a woman to donate her body and health to support the life of another person, why don’t we do the same for men (or actually people in general)?

And, finally, I think we should stop calling it abortion. Assuming the fetus is a child with full legal rights from conception, doesn’t the parent still have the right to remove it from life support, since it is a minor? Particularly if it shows limited to no brain function? Not sure when high-level brain function is detectable, but I’m guessing it is considerably later than the bogus ‘beating heart’ standard the anti-choice people love.

The other thing that can happen to a man is forced sterlization.

We used to do that a whole bunch back in the day against people deemed unfit for society.

We stopped doing it (for the most part) before Roe v Wade, but if a state chose to implement it again, the arguments for Roe v Wade would be a pretty strong argument that it’s no within the states right to do so.

With Roe v Wade shot down, if a state chose to start sterilizing people, I’m not sure there would be a legal remedy.

Old thread:

~Max

  1. Until the late 19th century, the mainstream religious and philosophical tradition in the West was that a human fetus didn’t acquire personhood until some point after conception but before birth.
  2. We can argue about when that point is, but a logical milestone is the beginning of measurable brain-wave activity, roughly 25 weeks after conception. After all, brain death is now commonly accepted as marking life’s end.

~Max

Cross posted from the Dobbs thread in Great Debates:

Thoughts on the Dobbs opinion:

Originalism - Dobbs is clearly an originalist opinion, and it highlights the many flaws in an already horribly flawed method of Constitutional interpretation. The most important, and the reason the majority uses an originalist method, is that it is cover for conservative, politically motivated justices to deny rights to anyone other than those who had them in 1787. So rights that would be protected if it involved white landowning men, get to be denied to women (bodily integrity and medical decision-making), homosexuals (marriage, sexual relations), and minorities. Thus, since women were mostly property and had very little rights in 1787, the government is allowed to deny them rights in 2022. Recognizing the reality of institutionalized racism/sexism/supremacy and defining rights based not on who had them in 1787 as originalism does, but rather by their true nature is much more in line with both the 9th Amendment and the very rationale for having a Constitution rather than a group of legalistic statutes. These flaws are why Originalism has long been rejected by SCOTUS as a valid method of constitutional interpretation.

The Roe opinion - There are very few justices and scholars who believe Roe is a well-written judicial opinion, so it was always very vulnerable to attack. Using “emanations and penumbras” and a vague “right to privacy” rather than a solid legal analysis with more precedential references put the right to bodily integrity on shaky footing in the first place. Although later decisions upholding Roe somewhat ameliorate the poor reasoning in Roe, it is the tenuous legal reasoning of Roe that made it so easily overturned. This is also true for Justice Kennedy’s opinions in Lawrence and Obergfell, two more poorly written, easily mocked, legal opinions.

Substantive Due Process - Like the Roe opinion, substantive due process is low hanging fruit for the majority. It’s a judicially created theory to accomplish what was clearly stated in the 9th Amendment: that the Constitution was meant to protect rights that are not specifically enumerated in the Bill of Rights. It is also a mess of multiple interpretations and fuzzy rationale that makes it so much easier for the current court to overrule cases based on it.

Stare Decisis - The majority opinion pays lip service and nothing more to the idea that SCOTUS should be reluctant to overturn precedent. As the dissent pointed out: “The Court reverses course today for one reason and one reason only: because the composition of this Court has changed.” This case, as well as Kennedy v. Bremerton and those cases coming down the pike, are the reason confidence in SCOTUS is pathetically low.

They are lying to you - The only kind thing I can say about Clarence Thomas is that, at least he is honest about what the Dobbs opinion means for all of the SDP cases. The majority, however, opts instead to lie to you and pretend that the rationale they use does not mean other precedents can be easily overturned. Of course lying to you seems to be the Modus Operandi of these activist, conservative justices (just read how they lied about the facts in Kennedy v. Bremerton). If the majority is consistent in its rationale in Dobbs, then we are not long from seeing the overturning of Lawrence, Obergefell, and Griswold. Again, as the dissent pointed out: “The lone rationale for what the majority does today is that the right to elect an abortion is not “deeply rooted in history”: Not until Roe, the majority argues, did people think abortion fell within the Constitution’s guarantee of liberty. The same could be said, though, of most of the rights the majority claims it is not tampering with. The majority could write just as long an opinion showing, for example, that until the mid-20th century, “there was no support in American law for a constitutional right to obtain [contraceptives].” So one of two things must be true. Either the majority does not really believe in its own reasoning. Or if it does, all rights that have no history stretching back to the mid 19th century are insecure. Either the mass of the majority’s opinion is hypocrisy, or additional constitutional rights are under threat. It is one or the other.”

TLDR: Dobbs is a politically motivated, activist ruling relying on a highly-flawed, oft-rejected method of Constitutional interpretation. And it’s just the beginning…

Beautifully put.

As I’ve said before, Originalism means putting yourself into the mindset of a racist white male from the 18th century before considering the outcome of a case.

I mentioned this is another thread but I want to add it here as well.

If congress had the inclination (and, more importantly, the votes), not only could it pass a national abortion rights law to reject this new ruling, it could also include in the law a provision that makes it exempt from judicial review.

From Article III of the constitution

I think the founders would have anticipated a much more robust congress than what we endure.

Setting a precedent that Congress can pass laws exempt from judicial review? What could possibly go wrong.:face_with_raised_eyebrow:

This disturbs me mightily (as if I wasn’t already pissed off):

A right-wing evangelical activist was caught on tape bragging that she prayed with Supreme Court justices.

Note that Biden is doing all he can:

“I’m asking the Justice Department that, much like they did in the Civil Rights era, to do everything in their power to protect these women seeking to invoke their rights,” Biden said at the White House on Friday.