# Supreme Court poised to strike down affirmative action in Harvard and UNC cases - let's talk about the ramifications (now struck down, June 29, 2023) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 27, 2023, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-poised-to-strike-down-affirmative-action-in-harvard-and-unc-cases-lets-talk-about-the-ramifications-now-struck-down-june-29-2023/981710 "2023-03-27T11:39:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2023, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-poised-to-strike-down-affirmative-action-in-harvard-and-unc-cases-lets-talk-about-the-ramifications-now-struck-down-june-29-2023/981710/61 "2023-06-29T15:31:26Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > There are soooo many deeper, more foundational flaws in our society. This isn’t to say that I don’t support giving preference to underrepresented minorities in college admissions (I do support affirmative action, albeit I wish it could be on grounds of remedying past wrongs, not flimsy assertions of “diversity”), only that I wish the news media didn’t cover it so extensively relative to those deeper, more foundational flaws that affect far more, and in general far less privileged, people than the narrow set of individuals with a chance to get into Harvard or even their state’s flagship university. Oh, don’t worry. The conservative project isn’t to end race-conscious admissions only in higher education. It’s to end race-based decision-making that disadvantages the powerful in all walks of life. John Roberts’ mission is to make sure nobody can ever point out that anyone is white ever again. There are already cases in the pipeline to extend the same interpretation of the 14th to all kinds of affirmative action. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2023, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-poised-to-strike-down-affirmative-action-in-harvard-and-unc-cases-lets-talk-about-the-ramifications-now-struck-down-june-29-2023/981710/62 "2023-06-29T16:20:27Z")
Justice Jackson’s dissent is pretty fun reading, including some choice tidbits here: “This contention blinks both history and reality in ways too numerous to count. But the response is simple: Our country has never been colorblind. Given the lengthy history of state-sponsored race-based preferences in America, to say that anyone is now victimized if a college considers whether that legacy of discrimination has unequally advantaged its applicants fails to acknowledge the well-documented “intergenerational transmission of inequality” that still plagues our citizenry.” “The majority seems to think that race blindness solves the problem of race-based disadvantage. But the irony is that requiring colleges to ignore the initial race-linked opportunity gap between applicants like John and James will inevitably widen that gap, not narrow it. It will delay the day that every American has an equal opportunity to thrive, regardless of race.” “With let-them-eat-cake obliviousness, today, the majority pulls the ripcord and announces “colorblindness for all” by legal fiat. But deeming race irrelevant in law does not make it so in life. And having so detached itself from this country’s actual past and present experiences, the Court has now been lured into interfering with the crucial work that UNC and other institutions of higher learning are doing to solve America’s real-world problems.” “The best that can be said of the majority’s perspective is that it proceeds (ostrich-like) from the hope that preventing consideration of race will end racism. But if that is its motivation, the majority proceeds in vain. If the colleges of this country are required to ignore a thing that matters, it will not just go away.” ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2023, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-poised-to-strike-down-affirmative-action-in-harvard-and-unc-cases-lets-talk-about-the-ramifications-now-struck-down-june-29-2023/981710/63 "2023-06-29T16:22:35Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Justice Jackson’s dissent is pretty fun reading, including some choice tidbits here: Very nice. I look forward to reading the whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2023, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-poised-to-strike-down-affirmative-action-in-harvard-and-unc-cases-lets-talk-about-the-ramifications-now-struck-down-june-29-2023/981710/64 "2023-06-29T16:56:20Z")
A (mostly) good ruling, IMO. A win for the 14th Amendment. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2023, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-poised-to-strike-down-affirmative-action-in-harvard-and-unc-cases-lets-talk-about-the-ramifications-now-struck-down-june-29-2023/981710/65 "2023-06-29T16:56:32Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > The conservative project isn’t to end race-conscious admissions only in higher education. It’s to end race-based decision-making that disadvantages the powerful in all walks of life. John Roberts’ mission is to make sure nobody can ever point out that anyone is white ever again. There are already cases in the pipeline to extend the same interpretation of the 14th to all kinds of affirmative action. I hope your last sentence is correct. Judging people by birth characteristics is plain wrong. It is not Roberts’ fault that Harvard in particular seems to do this more for children whose parents give the school donations, legacy status (including grandparents who went to Harvard when there were very few minorities) than it does for the color-based groups. [Study on Harvard finds 43 percent of white students are legacy, athletes, related to donors or staff](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/study-harvard-finds-43-percent-white-students-are-legacy-athletes-n1060361) > [@](#): > > The study, published earlier this month [in the National Bureau of Economic Research,](https://www.nber.org/papers/w26316.pdf) found that 43 percent of white students admitted to Harvard University were recruited athletes, legacy students, children of faculty and staff, or on the dean’s interest list — applicants whose parents or relatives have donated to Harvard. > > That number drops dramatically for black, Latino and Asian American students, according to the study, with less than 16 percent each coming from those categories. > > The study also found that roughly 75 percent of the white students admitted from those four categories, labeled ‘ALDCs’ in the study, “would have been rejected if they had been treated as white non-ALDCs,” the study said. Unfortunately, the drafters of the 14th amendment weren’t thinking of such a future possibility. It may be too much to expect the ivies to go to a full merit system anytime real soon, but there will now be increased pressure to cut back on other forms of discrimination noted in my quote block. I’ve read predictions that instead of cutting back on discrimination in favor of the children of their own community, they’ll probably try something like parental income based discrimination. Not good either, but better than skin color. After the Brown v. Board of Education decision, the South tried every which way to ignore or get around the ruling. But after about fifteen years, they began mostly following it. I expect that here. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2023, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-poised-to-strike-down-affirmative-action-in-harvard-and-unc-cases-lets-talk-about-the-ramifications-now-struck-down-june-29-2023/981710/66 "2023-06-29T16:58:29Z")
[A html version from The Nation](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thenation.com/article/society/kbj-dissent-affirmative-action/tnamp/) and [a .pdf version available for download](https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/homenews/4073556-read-jackson-dissent-supreme-court-affirmative-action/amp/). The majority ruling comes as no surprise, yet its complete rejection of the realities of the history of racism and of precedent are still troubling. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2023, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-poised-to-strike-down-affirmative-action-in-harvard-and-unc-cases-lets-talk-about-the-ramifications-now-struck-down-june-29-2023/981710/67 "2023-06-29T17:02:32Z")
Actually, weirdly enough, the main point of this ruling may be how _little_ it affects affirmative action and how _intact_ it leaves it. The ruling states that universities are still free to consider race when the college-applicant mentions how his or her race gives them some sort of unique quality or character attribute that would be desirable for the university to have. You can see how this loophole would be leveraged to the max. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2023, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-poised-to-strike-down-affirmative-action-in-harvard-and-unc-cases-lets-talk-about-the-ramifications-now-struck-down-june-29-2023/981710/68 "2023-06-29T19:01:08Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > It is not Roberts’ fault that Harvard in particular seems to do this more for children whose parents give the school donations, legacy status (including grandparents who went to Harvard when there were very few minorities) than it does for the color-based groups. I was wondering if this ruling will end the admission preference given to legacy applicants. If Harvard, at any point during its 387 year history, favored white applicants over minorities, then their descendants have an advantage based on their race. If race can not be a factor in admissions, it seems that legacy admissions have to go, too. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2023, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-poised-to-strike-down-affirmative-action-in-harvard-and-unc-cases-lets-talk-about-the-ramifications-now-struck-down-june-29-2023/981710/69 "2023-06-29T19:05:29Z")
I don’t think the Constitution says anything about discrimination on the basis of parental attendance, so I think white people will continue to be admitted based on legacy. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2023, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-poised-to-strike-down-affirmative-action-in-harvard-and-unc-cases-lets-talk-about-the-ramifications-now-struck-down-june-29-2023/981710/70 "2023-06-29T19:11:50Z")
Oh yes. This ruling is a win for children of wealthy white people, as intended by the wealthy white guy who filed the suit. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2023, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-poised-to-strike-down-affirmative-action-in-harvard-and-unc-cases-lets-talk-about-the-ramifications-now-struck-down-june-29-2023/981710/71 "2023-06-29T19:13:25Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > A (mostly) good ruling, IMO. A win for the 14th Amendment. Only if you give the 14th amendment its barest (and flimsiest) possible construction. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2023, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-poised-to-strike-down-affirmative-action-in-harvard-and-unc-cases-lets-talk-about-the-ramifications-now-struck-down-june-29-2023/981710/72 "2023-06-29T19:13:40Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > Judging people by birth characteristics is plain wrong. And yet, it happens every day in every venue. This ruling does nothing to reduce that. It only makes it much harder to correct for the inequities that causes. This is a pro-white ruling. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2023, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-poised-to-strike-down-affirmative-action-in-harvard-and-unc-cases-lets-talk-about-the-ramifications-now-struck-down-june-29-2023/981710/73 "2023-06-29T19:20:26Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > This ruling does nothing to reduce that. That’s not, AFAICT, true. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2023, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-poised-to-strike-down-affirmative-action-in-harvard-and-unc-cases-lets-talk-about-the-ramifications-now-struck-down-june-29-2023/981710/74 "2023-06-29T19:38:46Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I don’t think the Constitution says anything about discrimination on the basis of parental attendance, so I think white people will continue to be admitted based on legacy. That’s just racial preference once removed. If the Court is going to be such sticklers for the Equal Protections clause, then that should be prohibited, as well. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2023, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-poised-to-strike-down-affirmative-action-in-harvard-and-unc-cases-lets-talk-about-the-ramifications-now-struck-down-june-29-2023/981710/75 "2023-06-29T19:45:53Z")
🤣 Plus letters… ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2023, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-poised-to-strike-down-affirmative-action-in-harvard-and-unc-cases-lets-talk-about-the-ramifications-now-struck-down-june-29-2023/981710/76 "2023-06-29T19:49:14Z")
I agree with this sober assessment. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2023, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-poised-to-strike-down-affirmative-action-in-harvard-and-unc-cases-lets-talk-about-the-ramifications-now-struck-down-june-29-2023/981710/77 "2023-06-29T19:57:02Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > Judging people by birth characteristics is plain wrong. > [@PhillyGuy](#): > > It may be too much to expect the ivies to go to a full merit system anytime real soon Oh, but they are… for minorities. Rich white kids can still get in based on their birth characteristics, i.e. who their mommies and daddies are. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2023, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-poised-to-strike-down-affirmative-action-in-harvard-and-unc-cases-lets-talk-about-the-ramifications-now-struck-down-june-29-2023/981710/78 "2023-06-29T20:18:16Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > Unfortunately, the drafters of the 14th amendment weren’t thinking of such a future possibility. It’s so funny to imagine that anyone can convince himself the drafters of the 14th amendment 150 years ago were thinking “of course, if a school wants to let in some black students over white students on purpose, for the good of society, that will be illegal discrimination.” We just fought a war about slavery and they’re changing the constitution to fix the monstrosities it allowed up to that point. And they weren’t thinking about legacies, but they were definitely thinking of Harvard’s multi-faceted blind preferences in their admissions policies. I have outgrown my belief that anybody is genuinely moved by what they think the drafters actually thought (independent of the outcome they want themselves) but it’s a funny thing to imagine. Edgar Cowan thumping the heel of his hand on the lectern shouting about how someday one student who had a 1600 will get into Harvard, and another student who also got a 1600 will have to go to Columbia, because the second one is Japanese, and the progressives being like “now now Ed old sport, we’d never allow it, there’s no need to be vulgar.” ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2023, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-poised-to-strike-down-affirmative-action-in-harvard-and-unc-cases-lets-talk-about-the-ramifications-now-struck-down-june-29-2023/981710/79 "2023-06-29T20:24:33Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > In the short term, more Asian students might wind up being admitted, bypassing what now are effectively quotas. Anyone who thinks more Asian students will suddenly be admitted to Harvard is going to be sadly disappointed. But I’m willing to be disproved. Shall we come back in five years and look at enrollment figures? ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2023, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-poised-to-strike-down-affirmative-action-in-harvard-and-unc-cases-lets-talk-about-the-ramifications-now-struck-down-june-29-2023/981710/80 "2023-06-29T20:31:42Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I don’t think the Constitution says anything about discrimination on the basis of parental attendance, so I think white people will continue to be admitted based on legacy. Well, rich white people who have a parent from Spain or Latin America were getting AA preference, so there’s one white group less. The Biden administration did mention legacy preference in a statement today, but dumbly threw away a big opportunity to show they care about the working class by not making it the focus. There should be a law that no university which discriminates in admissions in favor of children of legacies, contributors, or politicians can get federal funds. This is not pie in the sky; Biden is setting up some sort of commission to recommend that sort of thing. The alternative is what I am reading about in India where affirmative action, originally for the most oppressed castes, is getting to the point that almost everyone is in a favored group. P.S… Did I mention discrimination in favor of the children of politicians? I was a little involved in this mess when I was a student in the 1970’s at a school I won’t mention because of lack of proof. But they preferenced the children, and grandchildren, and maybe other relatives, of members of the state legislature. As for going after this first, won’t work. You have to take opportunities to fight discrimination as they come. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-poised-to-strike-down-affirmative-action-in-harvard-and-unc-cases-lets-talk-about-the-ramifications-now-struck-down-june-29-2023/981710.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-poised-to-strike-down-affirmative-action-in-harvard-and-unc-cases-lets-talk-about-the-ramifications-now-struck-down-june-29-2023/981710.md?page=5)