# Supreme Court: Religious Freedom More Important than Fighting Covid **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 26, 2020, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-religious-freedom-more-important-than-fighting-covid/926466 "2020-11-26T06:11:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Tfletch1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tfletch1/32/5340_2.png) [@Tfletch1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tfletch1)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-religious-freedom-more-important-than-fighting-covid/926466/61 "2020-11-26T17:23:50Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > What’s your standing to pronounce on the religious obligations of Catholics? That’s not your call. Logic, I guess. > [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > Who is _forcing_ anyone to attend Mass? Bishop DiMarzio brought a lawsuit seeking to _permit_ people to attend Mass. Not the same thing at all. You’re confusing me because you are insisting that it’s a religious requirement and I’m wrong for saying it must not be a religious requirement. In your very next comment, you saying no one is being forced. But if it’s a religious requirement, then people are being forced, right? So if they don’t go to church and die before they make it to confession, isn’t this one of the reasons they go to purgatory? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-religious-freedom-more-important-than-fighting-covid/926466/62 "2020-11-26T17:25:11Z")
I’ve long been a supporter of The Satanic Temple; I’m pretty sure they’ve already got an actionable plan for exploiting this. Just gotta wait and see what it is. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-religious-freedom-more-important-than-fighting-covid/926466/63 "2020-11-26T17:27:36Z")
Read all my posts. Catholics are, as a rule, obligated to attend Mass. In extraordinary circumstances (and we’re certainly in the midst of extraordinary circumstances), bishops have the authority to suspend that obligation. At least in my diocese, our bishop, the very same bishop who brought the lawsuit under discussion in this thread, has suspended the obligation to attend weekly Mass. I don’t know what the situation is in every diocese in the country. I know that in the neighboring dioceses around here, the obligation is suspended there too. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-religious-freedom-more-important-than-fighting-covid/926466/64 "2020-11-26T17:31:00Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > No. Why do you ask? Because of social obligation and religious training/indoctrination, merely telling Roman Catholics they don’t _have_ to attend Mass, then prepping the service and leaving the doors open is just winking at the indoctrinated. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-religious-freedom-more-important-than-fighting-covid/926466/65 "2020-11-26T17:33:35Z")
Those of us with religious beliefs are actually just “indoctrinated,” and we’re just too stupid to realize it, right? You know, there’s an actual issue here, worth discussing. You, and people like you, make a discussion impossible. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-religious-freedom-more-important-than-fighting-covid/926466/66 "2020-11-26T17:35:24Z")
> [@Tfletch1](#): > > You’re confusing me because you are insisting that it’s a religious requirement and I’m wrong for saying it must not be a religious requirement. In your very next comment, you saying no one is being forced. But if it’s a religious requirement, then people are being forced, right? So if they don’t go to church and die before they make it to confession, isn’t this one of the reasons they go to purgatory? It is religious requirement but no one is being forced in the dioceses where the bishops have granted a dispensation form the obligation to attend Mass. That’s what a dispensation is - there is an obligation or law that ordinarily applies and an authorized person ( priest/bishop/pope) it depends has dispensed with that requirement in a particular situation. Just because people are not obligated to attend doesn’t mean that some of them don’t wish to attend anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-religious-freedom-more-important-than-fighting-covid/926466/67 "2020-11-26T17:39:28Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > Those of us with religious beliefs are actually just “indoctrinated,” and we’re just too stupid to realize it, right? You should just stick to what I actually say-I don’t like wasting my time denying what I _didn’t_ say. What I am saying that merely telling people that have been told their whole lives how important going to Mass is that it isn’t _mandatory_ at this time just isn’t enough. It is worse than telling people that they aren’t _obligated_ to go the bar or the movies…but they will be open if people _want_ to go(nudge nudge, wink wink). ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-religious-freedom-more-important-than-fighting-covid/926466/68 "2020-11-26T17:44:42Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > At least in my diocese, the obligation is still suspended, although many churches are open for those who wish to attend Mass. This is my point though - the church itself acknowledges that it’s not against their religious beliefs to stop having large gatherings for public safety. They just don’t want the rest of society to be able to set rules about those gatherings to protect themselves. They want to set their own rules on fist-swinging and don’t want to be oppressed by anyone’s face. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-religious-freedom-more-important-than-fighting-covid/926466/69 "2020-11-26T17:46:01Z")
I can’t answer for Catholics worldwide but I can answer for the ones i know and for the Catholic churches I pass by - and the answer is "not many ". And I’m talking about people who make it a point to find Catholic churches and Mass times while on vacation and who wouldn’t take a cruise if it would prevent them from attending Mass. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-religious-freedom-more-important-than-fighting-covid/926466/70 "2020-11-26T17:49:44Z")
What you said was this: > Because of social obligation and religious training/indoctrination, merely telling Roman Catholics they don’t _have_ to attend Mass, then prepping the service and leaving the doors open is just winking at the indoctrinated. So, yeah, the indoctrination thing is right there in what you said. And you make it fucking impossible to agree with you. Your knee-jerk response is to say something obnoxious even to those who would agree with you. If you were actually engaging with anything I posted, you’d notice this: > Look, as a Catholic resident in Bishop DiMarzio’s diocese, I wish he hadn’t brought this lawsuit. Bishop DiMarzio knows there’s a pandemic going on, and back in March, suspended the Sunday obligation. I wish he’d left it at that. > I don’t know whether the Supreme Court was right or wrong to block enforcement of Governor Cuomo’s executive order. I think the Diocese of Brooklyn (and the Archdiocese of New York, and every other diocese in the country) ought to lock the doors of their churches, or at least massively restrict the size (and spacing, and mask wearing, etc.) of all gatherings, including gatherings for Mass. > I wish Bishop DiMarzio hadn’t brought this lawsuit. I think he did the right thing at the beginning of the pandemic by suspending the Sunday obligation. I think he ought to lock the doors of every church in his diocese. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-religious-freedom-more-important-than-fighting-covid/926466/71 "2020-11-26T17:50:53Z")
I am pretty liberal, haven’t been to a religious service in ages, and I’m terrified of covid. But freedom to practice religion is right up there in the constitution, and I’ll not at all certain this was a bad ruling. I’m glad the diocese suspended the obligation to attend. I think they should have gone farther, and locked all the buildings. (Which is what my temple did, by the way, and Judaism also requires praying in groups, a “minyan”.) But I’m not certain the state ought to outlawing people gathering to pray. We let people do lots of other stuff that increase the risk of death, like driving faster that 25mph. ---
**Author:** ![Tfletch1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tfletch1/32/5340_2.png) [@Tfletch1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tfletch1)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-religious-freedom-more-important-than-fighting-covid/926466/72 "2020-11-26T17:53:18Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > It is religious requirement but no one is being forced in the dioceses where the bishops have granted a dispensation form the obligation to attend Mass. That’s what a dispensation is - there is an obligation or law that ordinarily applies and an authorized person ( priest/bishop/pope) it depends has dispensed with that requirement in a particular situation. > > Just because people are not obligated to attend doesn’t mean that some of them don’t wish to attend anyway. Okay, I’m getting it now. So the Catholic federalized system allows individual diocese to make a decision on whether it is an obligation under certain circumstances. I suspect the bishop who did not grant the dispensation and allowed mass to proceed every Sunday during the pandemic will have a lot explaining to do at the pearly gate. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-religious-freedom-more-important-than-fighting-covid/926466/73 "2020-11-26T17:54:00Z")
You are in no way agreeing with me. If religious institutions are to be treated the same as other institutions where people gather, then merely not obligating people to go in person isn’t enough. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-religious-freedom-more-important-than-fighting-covid/926466/74 "2020-11-26T17:54:34Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > {…} We let people do lots of other stuff that increase the risk of death {…} If all the people that get Covid from shit like this would simply drop dead it wouldn’t be the problem that it is. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-religious-freedom-more-important-than-fighting-covid/926466/75 "2020-11-26T17:55:43Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > We let people do lots of other stuff that increase the risk of death, like driving faster that 25mph. Ah, but we don’t, CAN’T, make people prove their competency before allowing them to be religious, eh. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-religious-freedom-more-important-than-fighting-covid/926466/76 "2020-11-26T17:56:38Z")
I’d be surprised if any bishops didn’t grant the dispensation, but I don’t know for certain. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-religious-freedom-more-important-than-fighting-covid/926466/77 "2020-11-26T18:03:51Z")
If politicians and health officials are going to make an exemption for so-called protests, peaceful or otherwise, you can’t sell the idea that religious gatherings are prohibited. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-religious-freedom-more-important-than-fighting-covid/926466/78 "2020-11-26T18:05:10Z")
**Modhat on** : This is not a warning, but do not quote out of context like this in P&E or GD. That is debating in bad faith. I am entering a note on your user profile about this. > Sotomayor agreed that states “may not discriminate against religious institutions, even when faced with a crisis as deadly as this one. **But those principles,” she stressed, “are not at stake today**.” ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-religious-freedom-more-important-than-fighting-covid/926466/79 "2020-11-26T18:05:50Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Ah, but we don’t, CAN’T, make people prove their competency before allowing them to be religious, eh. They’ll prove their competency when after the symptoms start appearing they clog up the hospitals and not the building they’re required to go to to have God hear their prayers to cure their Covid. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2020, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-religious-freedom-more-important-than-fighting-covid/926466/80 "2020-11-26T18:06:28Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > If politicians and health officials are going to make an exemption for so-called protests, peaceful or otherwise, you can’t sell the idea that religious gatherings are prohibited Soooo…You want they should treat people going to Mass the same way police treated protesters? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-religious-freedom-more-important-than-fighting-covid/926466.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-religious-freedom-more-important-than-fighting-covid/926466.md?page=5)