# Supreme Court rules in favor of Westboro protests **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 2, 2011, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-rules-in-favor-of-westboro-protests/573222 "2011-03-02T16:15:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-rules-in-favor-of-westboro-protests/573222/81 "2011-03-03T04:54:49Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > If you are an atheist then you are probably not very familiar with the Christian Bible. I think I’m at least as familiar with it as you are. Your attempts to paint Christians into a corner using Phelps are not convincing me of your expertise. > [@](#): > > It’s only the self serving ego-centric nature of human beings that want to proclaim themselves as religious while refuting the basic tenets of their own religion Since when is hatred of gays “one of the basic tenets” of Christianity? A great deal of religion is the stuff that’s been built on top of the scriptures over the millennia. Like **Qin Shi Huangdi** says, Christians do not believe they’re bound by all Old Testament laws, so Leviticus is not necessarily relevant. And what’s wrong with the self-serving egocentric nature of human beings? Humans evolve, and their religions evolve. It’s folly to pretend otherwise, and it’s folly to play gotcha like this. > [@](#): > > Wrong, but consistent. You know what they say about consistency. Again, there’s nothing in the Bible that requires you to take the whole thing literally and immutably. > [@](#): > > In short, Christian = gays will rot in hell. Cite please. I think Christianity is pretty consistent in saying that humans don’t know who’s going to hell and who isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-rules-in-favor-of-westboro-protests/573222/82 "2011-03-03T08:49:50Z")
The Phelpes are precisely why we have a First Amendment. It doesn’t exist for the sake of people who say nice things that don’t offend anyone. It exists specifically for speech that is offensive, speech that offended people would want to prohibit. We can’t prohibit even the most vile of speech without compromising our own freedom. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-rules-in-favor-of-westboro-protests/573222/83 "2011-03-03T12:25:01Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > What does “in full compliance with the guidance of local officials” mean? > > It seems to me the court completely ignored the concept of disturbing the peace. Funerals are by their nature an event designed for the emotional comfort of those attending. The Phelps are disturbing that peace, not as a ancillary function of their protest but as a primary function. > > Freedom of speech should focus on communication. It was meant to protect the ability to transfer information. That process involves willing participants. It does not infer one party has a right to enforce the process over another. What the Phelps are doing is deliberate emotional harassment and does not reflect on their ability to get their message out to those who want to hear it. That is the line between disturbing the peace and freedom of speech. You’re arguing for freedom \*from \*speech here, which if expanded upon would mean protecting ignorance from hurtful information. That’s toxic to a democracy. I’d rather take this precedent & try to work on protecting protests against officeholders & campaign fund bundlers. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-rules-in-favor-of-westboro-protests/573222/84 "2011-03-03T12:52:03Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You know what, I’m going to back off this argument: it’s not the point. The point is that **everybody picks and chooses** , and the contention that Phelps is more “consistent” than a cafeteria Christian is ridiculous. (So is the idea that he’s calling some issue to their attention.) Phelps certainly isn’t very big on “love thy neighbor,” for starters. (emphasis mine) Correct. But you do know that you’ll have to keep saying it ad infinitum, for all the good it will do… Most Christian churches traditionally abided by what is indicated in [Acts Chapter 15](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2015&version=KJV), that the Apostles decided that Gentile converts were NOT to be bound by most ritual laws save for those regarding “idols, fornication, and blood” thus _the stuff about shellfish and mixed-fabric clothes does not apply_ to them. What the heck the remaining rules were to mean, though, was annoyingly left to picking and choosing and is cause for debate ever since (iconoclasty, sexual conduct, the JW’s opposition to transfusions, etc). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-rules-in-favor-of-westboro-protests/573222/85 "2011-03-03T12:59:12Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It’s not so much his freedom to swill bullshit, it’s his determination to harass other people. He goes beyond any reasonable attempt to get his message out and focuses his energy on people already in emotional distress. But that _ **does** _ wind up garnering a lot more publicity. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-rules-in-favor-of-westboro-protests/573222/86 "2011-03-03T13:23:51Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Since when is hatred of gays “one of the basic tenets” of Christianity? Since about 1200AD. Before that, it wasn’t looked upon kindly but wasn’t that big a deal either. ---
**Author:** ![Ramanujan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/51bf81/32.png) [@Ramanujan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramanujan)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-rules-in-favor-of-westboro-protests/573222/87 "2011-03-03T14:38:10Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > It’s only the self serving ego-centric nature of human beings that want to proclaim themselves as religious while refuting the basic tenets of their own religion, something that Phelps is not willing to do, which makes him consistent. i’d like to hear your thoughts if you ever meet a true scotsman. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-rules-in-favor-of-westboro-protests/573222/88 "2011-03-03T15:04:12Z")
Now we’ve gotten the inevitable Tweet from Sarah Palin’s bunker: > [@](#): > > Common sense & decency absent as wacko “church” allowed hate msgs spewed@ soldiers’ funerals but we can’t invoke God’s name in public square ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-rules-in-favor-of-westboro-protests/573222/89 "2011-03-03T15:10:44Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Now we’ve gotten the inevitable Tweet from Sarah Palin’s bunker: Mmmmmm…word salad with moose oil dressing! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-rules-in-favor-of-westboro-protests/573222/90 "2011-03-03T15:14:11Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Now we’ve gotten the inevitable Tweet from Sarah Palin’s bunker: Fuck, she’s an idiot. Someone tell her she just DID invoke God’s name in the public square. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-rules-in-favor-of-westboro-protests/573222/91 "2011-03-03T15:16:16Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Can’t say I agree. Phelps is either a nasty religious sociopath, or he’s leech who looks to tries to provoke people so he can sue them for money. Someone who threatens to beat his lights in at least has the depth of human feeling, even if that’s the wrong thing to do. Other than the fact that Phelps’s emotions likely derive from some kind of pathology, I see no objective difference between the emotions that drive Phelps to protest and the emotions that drive the Hells Angels to threaten him. They’re both representative of genuine human feeling, and both representative of the kinds of feeling that we as observers would hope they would not act on. The objective difference is that Phelps’s emotions drive him to engage in public speech, which we as a society have adjudged to be a valid manner in which to express one’s human feeling. Indeed, we enshrine it as a fundamental value of our societal system. On the other hand, the Hells Angels manifested their human feelings in a threat of violence, which we as a society have not only decided is inappropriate, we have also instituted punishments for it. So, in my view, Phelps’s ravings are much, much more acceptable objectively than the Hells Angels threats of violence. > [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > It should be noted that they didn’t have the balls to actually show up at the funeral- Was it that they didn’t “have the balls” to show up or that they had decided that in expressing their opinion, they would abide by every reasonable regulation? The Supreme Court noted that the Phelps demonstration followed every limitation that legitimate authorities had set up for them? It seems like you’re trying to Catch-22 them. Anyway, if it’s all an issue of balls, then I could easily say that people should have the balls not to be so butthurt about a small group of raving loonies holding up a few silly signs 1,000 yards from their funeral. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-rules-in-favor-of-westboro-protests/573222/92 "2011-03-03T15:27:17Z")
Re: Phelps’ “Christianity,” I personally don’t even see him as religious. He’s far more cynical than that. Religion is just a racket for him. He’s not a genuine religious zealot, he just uses it for tax exempt status and as a vehicle to run his peculiar little business of trolling for lawsuits. He no more believes his own schtick than L. Ron Hubbard did. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-rules-in-favor-of-westboro-protests/573222/93 "2011-03-03T15:30:30Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > he just uses it for tax exempt status and as a vehicle to run his peculiar little business of trolling for lawsuits. If this is the case, then we of all people know what the proper response to Phelps is: DNFTT ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-rules-in-favor-of-westboro-protests/573222/94 "2011-03-03T15:31:00Z")
By the way, I also agree that the Hell’s Angels showing up to threaten physical violence against them is far more offensive, criminal and unacceptable than the WBC waving their stupid signs around. At the end of the day, the signs don’t actually hurt anybody. Why anybody would give the slightest damn what those clowns have to say is beyond me. Getting upset at them implies that their opinions have any value. To me, they shouldn’t be given any more thought than monkeys throwing shit. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-rules-in-favor-of-westboro-protests/573222/95 "2011-03-03T15:33:41Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > If this is the case, then we of all people know what the proper response to Phelps is: DNFTT Exactly. His entire goal is to provoke people into giving him publicity and into doing things he can sue them for. The best way to deal with them, and the thing which would annoy them the most, is to completely ignore them. Act like they’re not even there. That would drive them nuts. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-rules-in-favor-of-westboro-protests/573222/96 "2011-03-03T15:45:58Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Fuck, she’s an idiot. Someone tell her she just DID invoke God’s name in the public square. And she might have gotten away with it if it weren’t for those meddling kids. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-rules-in-favor-of-westboro-protests/573222/97 "2011-03-03T15:48:31Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Since about 1200AD. Before that, it wasn’t looked upon kindly but wasn’t that big a deal either. What is it that makes it a basic tenet of the religion? It’s outdated and vile and been used to harm a lot of people, but I don’t see it as central to the faith. I think if you asked people to explain the most important tenets of Christianity, you would hear little or nothing about gays. Granted that whackjobs like Phelps and some conservative politicians spend an inordinate amount of time obsessing over the issue for their own reasons. It’s not a basic tenet of Christianity. > [@acsenray](#): > > So, in my view, Phelps’s ravings are much, much more acceptable objectively than the Hells Angels threats of violence. I realize it’s not acceptable. You were talking about respect. > [@](#): > > Anyway, if it’s all an issue of balls, then I could easily say that people should have the balls not to be so butthurt about a small group of raving loonies holding up a few silly signs 1,000 yards from their funeral. This is callous, and doesn’t make sense. A person’s response to vitriolic protestors at a funeral has nothing to do with balls. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-rules-in-favor-of-westboro-protests/573222/98 "2011-03-03T15:49:32Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > By the way, I also agree that the Hell’s Angels showing up to threaten physical violence against them is far more offensive, criminal and unacceptable than the WBC waving their stupid signs around. At the end of the day, the signs don’t actually hurt anybody. Why anybody would give the slightest damn what those clowns have to say is beyond me. Getting upset at them implies that their opinions have any value. To me, they shouldn’t be given any more thought than monkeys throwing shit. My understanding was they were threatening violence against them if they got close to the funeral itself. In other words, the threat was to stop them from disrupting the service, not to stop them from waving signs. This, I think, is _a little_ more acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-rules-in-favor-of-westboro-protests/573222/99 "2011-03-03T16:40:12Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > I see no objective difference between the emotions that drive Phelps to protest and the emotions that drive the Hells Angels to threaten him. The Hells Angels did not threaten him. Read the post again, this time for comprehension: > [@](#): > > the Hells Angels had put it out there that they’d pay any legal fees for anyone who got in trouble for defending the funeral against the Phelps ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-rules-in-favor-of-westboro-protests/573222/100 "2011-03-03T16:43:54Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I realize it’s not acceptable. You were talking about respect. To me there’s no difference. I have more respect for a person engaging in speech for the same reasons that we consider speech a value on our society. I never have respect for someone who sincerely threatens violence against someone merely to stop speech, in particular, this kind of public political/religious speech. > [@](#): > > This is callous, and doesn’t make sense. A person’s response to vitriolic protestors at a funeral has nothing to do with balls. I guess it depends on what we mean by balls. I have no argument that someone might be hurt by the kind of statements we are talking about. What I am saying is that it takes a certain level of cowardice to actually fear such a statement so much as to threaten violence to stop it. The Hells Angels threat was cowardly and deserves no respect at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-rules-in-favor-of-westboro-protests/573222.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-rules-in-favor-of-westboro-protests/573222.md?page=6)