# Supreme Court Ruling: Take the handcounts! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 22, 2000, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-ruling-take-the-handcounts/42228 "2000-11-22T02:51:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2000, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-ruling-take-the-handcounts/42228/1 "2000-11-22T02:51:06Z")
Can’t wait to see the 42 pages it took for them to come up with that. It is WONDERFUL news! I am thrilled. So thrilled in fact, that I did something I never do…I started a new thread to express it! 😃 Well, the announcment is about 5 minutes old. I thought it best to start a new thread to discuss it specifically. YAY!!! Stoid Hoping they can get the damn count finished in 5 days! yipes! ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2000, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-ruling-take-the-handcounts/42228/2 "2000-11-22T02:57:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stoidela \* > \*\*Can’t wait to see the 42 pages it took for them to come up with that. > > It is WONDERFUL news! I am thrilled. So thrilled in fact, that I did something I never do…I started a new thread to express it! 😃 > > Well, the announcment is about 5 minutes old. I thought it best to start a new thread to discuss it specifically. > > YAY!!! > > Stoid > Hoping they can get the damn count finished in 5 days! yipes! > > \*\* I don’t see any debate here, just a smarmy rant. “Nyahh-Nyaah-Nyaah!” isn’t a debate. {Inappropriate comment deleted per poster’s request. --Gaudere} Fenris [Edited by Gaudere on 11-27-2000 at 08:49 PM] ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2000, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-ruling-take-the-handcounts/42228/3 "2000-11-22T03:02:34Z")
Wow… I was expressing happiness, I wasn’t being nasty to anyone. Jeez…chill out. And it is certainly going to be debated, so it belongs here. As mods have often been known to say, virtually all politics automatically belong here. stoid still really jazzed ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2000, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-ruling-take-the-handcounts/42228/4 "2000-11-22T03:06:55Z")
Gee, Stoidela, did you have your fingers poised over your keyboard all night? For those thinking folk who actually have points to debate on this: I’m trying to read the ruling, but the Florida Courts web site isn’t coming up. It’s probably crashing from all the hits. I’m assuming news organizations will have it on their sites in no time. ---
**Author:** ![Twin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@Twin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twin)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2000, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-ruling-take-the-handcounts/42228/5 "2000-11-22T03:12:41Z")
DNFTT That’s right. You read it. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2000, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-ruling-take-the-handcounts/42228/6 "2000-11-22T03:14:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fenris \*\*\* > > I don’t see any debate here, just a smarmy rant. “Nyahh-Nyaah-Nyaah!” isn’t a debate. > Fenris \*\* Mods: I apologize for my previous post. I stand by what I said about that person’s behaviour, but this is an inappropriate place to post it. Would it be possible to delete the last two sentences leaving only the sentence I quoted above? Sorry for the extra work. I know better and it won’t happen again. Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2000, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-ruling-take-the-handcounts/42228/7 "2000-11-22T03:14:32Z")
Kinda lends new meaning to this thread: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=47327](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=47327) ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2000, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-ruling-take-the-handcounts/42228/8 "2000-11-22T03:29:31Z")
Gee Stoid, what would we do without you? After all, we all live in caves. We don’t have any access to the news. So, we need _you_ to tell us this stuff! So each time there is a news update, we can count on you to _ **start a new thread!!** _ After all, we all do appreciate it _so_ much, and we all have thanked you _multiple_ times for all the threads you start! Oh yeah. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2000, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-ruling-take-the-handcounts/42228/9 "2000-11-22T03:41:00Z")
Gee, yo’babe, this is a sad state of affairs when there’s emotional chit-chat on a message board, rather than unsullied information and the logic of rigorous debate. [/sarcasm] Now, I’ve got a plane to catch. I’ve been drafted to be part of the ballot-dimpling squad on the crack Democratic election-stealing team. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2000, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-ruling-take-the-handcounts/42228/10 "2000-11-22T03:48:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > I’ve been drafted to be part of the ballot-dimpling squad on the crack Democratic election-stealing team. 😉 oh, wow! how do I get that job? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![divemaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/divemaster/32/78_2.png) [@divemaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/divemaster)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2000, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-ruling-take-the-handcounts/42228/11 "2000-11-22T03:54:33Z")
I’ll read about it in the papers tomorrow, I guess. What I really want to know is how they are going to count the dimpled chads. I mean, if a ballot contains no obvious vote, but has a “dimple” on the Gore chad, that will be counted as a vote for Gore (voter intent). It is evident from the situation in Broward County that the Gore team wants dimpled chads to be counted as votes i.e., dimple = vote So what happens with those ballots that contain a dimple as well as some other type of chad (hanging, pregnant, whatever)? Since dimple = vote has already been established, these ballots _must be discarded_ as having two votes. Funny that I don’t hear the Gore team making sure these ballots are thrown out. In fact, they want ‘voter intent’ to be divined on these as well! I would say they can’t have it both ways; but it is quite evident that they do want it both ways. Note the desperation of team Gore as the hand counts aren’t producing enough votes to overtake Bush’s total. It seems they will keep looking until they find the votes. Face it, Bush has never been behind in Florida. From the original count, up until the time I am writing this, he _has always been ahead_. How some can turn this upside down and say that _Bush_ is trying to “steal” the election is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2000, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-ruling-take-the-handcounts/42228/12 "2000-11-22T04:24:59Z")
Bush will either have to take it federal or put amazing amounts of pressure on Gore to do a hand recount of all of Florida. Although as I was writing that, a solution popped into my head. Maybe Bush could get a hand recount of those counties that voted most heavily for him, enough that their population would equal the population of the counties in which Gore has requested a recount? This would be a clever way of getting around doing the whole state. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2000, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-ruling-take-the-handcounts/42228/13 "2000-11-22T04:35:38Z")
I’m sure that if Bush had really wanted a hand recount of Florida before tonight, it would have been do-able. Ms. Harris would have merely had to be a good soldier and agree to use her discretion to take hand counts from all counties. Gore would have dropped his appeal of the lower court decision, and the statewide hand count would have proceeded. Now it isn’t possible, because the FL Supreme Court has instituted a deadline of their own, and I doubt that even an agreement involving both candidates, the guv, the secretary of state, and the entire state legislature could move them to change it. ---
**Author:** ![pohjonen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pohjonen/32/423_2.png) [@pohjonen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pohjonen)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2000, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-ruling-take-the-handcounts/42228/14 "2000-11-22T04:39:33Z")
“Bush will either have to take it federal or put amazing amounts of pressure on Gore to do a hand recount of all of Florida.” Bush could have asked for a hand count in his counties, but didn’t want to because they have better voting equipment. Besides, his 72 hours have expired. We must follow the letter of the law, right? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2000, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-ruling-take-the-handcounts/42228/15 "2000-11-22T04:39:37Z")
They address both the fact that an election should not be final if a recount is in progress, and they do address the chad issue, just in passing. But it tells us where they will go if the chads are put before them. What is most interesting here is the fact that these are decisions that have been made in other courts. There certainly is consistency here. The closer you look, the more justified the Democratic position is. And that is what the court has found. Pantom: Bush is screwed on the topic of going for a statewide recount. The opinion addresses that veryissue in one of the footnotes. 53 or 56, I think. The court basically says: we offered you the opportunity to ask us for a statewide recount, you declined. With that in the opinion, Bush would have a very, very hard time making a case for it in Federal court. His side took the position that they don’t like or trust recounts. So he’s outta luck on that one. ---
**Author:** ![pohjonen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pohjonen/32/423_2.png) [@pohjonen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pohjonen)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2000, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-ruling-take-the-handcounts/42228/16 "2000-11-22T04:43:18Z")
After all, deadlines are deadlines. ---
**Author:** ![brad\_d](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@brad\_d](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brad_d)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2000, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-ruling-take-the-handcounts/42228/17 "2000-11-22T04:50:06Z")
Bush’s lead, according to CNN, is currently at 930 votes _without_ counting the pending hand recounts in Broward, Palm Beach, and Miami-Dade counties. According to [this article](http://www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/11/21/president.election/index.html), Broward is done with theirs and Gore gained a net of 118 votes. Palm Beach and Miami-Dade are still at it, but they have partial results and Gore gains. (PBC: 104/531 precincts, +3 Gore votes; MDC: 137/614, +157) Making the (horrendously unfounded) assumption that the trend shown so far for those two counties will continue, I get that Gore will wind up with a net gain of about 837 votes from those recounts. I suppose that could be taken as good news by those of us less than eager to see another liberal in the White House, but really, I think it’s just too close to call. My opinion: We’ll never know for sure who would have won this election if all eligible voters who attempted to vote actually had been successful at doing so. Any steps taken now to resolve the issue are band-aid solutions taken because _somebody_ has to win. ---
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2000, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-ruling-take-the-handcounts/42228/18 "2000-11-22T04:50:37Z")
I’m glad they are doing this, but it upsets me that this will probably lead to Gore winning. I REALLY don’t like him and his policies (I don’t like Bush either, but I don’t think he is as dangerous to our nation). ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2000, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-ruling-take-the-handcounts/42228/19 "2000-11-22T04:56:21Z")
I am baffled how anyone can now think that the Democrat position is justified. The BEST solution for the U.S. now is that Bush win based on the recount. If Al Gore wins, the U.S. is in for a very disturbing four years. This is how conservatives will see it: A Democrat won the election by re-counting all votes that favored HIM, after managing to get current election law overturned, even if the ballot was only dimpled, while managing to get servicemen disenfranchised in order to secure the presidency. If Gore wins, there’s going to be civil unrest. I heard tonight that some Republicans in the House and Senate are saying that if Gore is elected they will not attend the inauguration, but will protest in another location instead. Gore won’t only face the normal resistance of a Republican House, but active hostility. Bad news. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2000, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-ruling-take-the-handcounts/42228/20 "2000-11-22T04:59:17Z")
Yeah, yeah, they got an extension. Woohoo. I’m willing to go along with that (it is, after all, the Supreme Court of Florida), but if they can’t make even the extended deadline, then even you, Stoid, must admit that the Gore camp is composed of doody-heads. (I hope that language isn’t too harsh for GD :D) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-ruling-take-the-handcounts/42228.md?page=2)