# Supreme Court says California must release thousands of prisoners **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2011, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930 "2011-05-23T18:32:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930/21 "2011-05-24T02:01:08Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > How about they release the prisoners in the same neighborhoods where SCOTUS justices live. They can send all the weed dealers to my neighborhood. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930/22 "2011-05-24T02:05:58Z")
> [@urban1a](#): > > But, aren’t illegal aliens in federal prisons to which the ruling doesn’t apply? > > Bob Illegal aliens who have committed state crimes are in state prisons. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930/23 "2011-05-24T02:09:02Z")
-redundant post- ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930/24 "2011-05-24T03:47:36Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > I’d say just send all the illegals back, but with our border security they’d be walking down main street the very next day… Well, it’s a start, but while California has by far the largest number of incarcerated illegal aliens in its state prisons (about 10,000) of any state, that still leaves 23,000 others. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930/25 "2011-05-24T03:52:09Z")
Quoth **flickster** : > [@](#): > > I’d say just send all the illegals back, but with our border security they’d be walking down main street the very next day… What does border security have to do with anything? All the folks in prison are, by definition, illegals, and “sending them back” means letting them walk down main street right now. And if you let loose all the illegals, what do you plan to do with all the now-empty prison buildings? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930/26 "2011-05-24T04:01:12Z")
Maybe the rave fad will come back into fashion? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930/27 "2011-05-24T04:46:07Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Quoth **flickster** :What does border security have to do with anything? All the folks in prison are, by definition, illegals, and “sending them back” means letting them walk down main street right now. And if you let loose all the illegals, what do you plan to do with all the now-empty prison buildings? In the context in which he’s using it, “illegal” is usually used to refer to those people who have entered the country illegally or who have violated immigration law allowing them to be legally in the country. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930/28 "2011-05-24T05:00:08Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Interesting. I’m surprised you’d be willing to cut short illegal immigrants’ sentences and let them be free in the country to which they are deported. It could be up to their home country to continue incarceration of set them free Would no longer be the responsibility of CA or be a burden on the taxpayers ---
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930/29 "2011-05-24T13:12:38Z")
It certainly doesn’t help that we have one of the highest costs of incarceration in the nation. Governor Davis was, and now Brown is pretty much in the prison guard union’s pocket. Brown just gave them a HUGE bump, removing limitations on the banking of unused vacation, which will cost us billions. Some guards are making over 200k per year. It costs almost THREE times as much to keep a prisoner in our state than it does in Texas or Florida. They have known about this problem for at least ten years, and kept right on heading for that iceberg, handing the union pretty much anything they asked for. Now it is to late. Law abiding citizens are going to die over this. Thanks a lot, Sacramento! ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930/30 "2011-05-24T14:04:59Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > If they cut loose all the people doing time on non-violent, non-sales drug related charges, it will be a good start. How many of those are there, and will it make a significant difference? I know the drug legalization folks will tell us that some large percentage of those in prison are there because the police caught them with three joints in their sock, but I rather suspect that to be exaggerated. What I mean is, I would like to know how many inmates in CA are there because they were convicted **only** of non-violent drug offenses. By which I do not mean the crack dealer who was convicted of possession with intent to distribute, because it was his third offense and the first two were assault with a deadly weapon and first-degree manslaughter in connection with a gang-related drive-by. Because I think that is behind much of the reaction against this ruling - what if the inmates to be released aren’t “safe” or nice or just naive first offenders? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930/31 "2011-05-24T14:31:32Z")
The three fold increase in the incarceration rate since 1980 is one of the few social experiments in the United States since the end of the New Deal that worked as planned. From 1980 to 2000 the prison population in the United States increased from 315,974 to 1,428,187. From 1980 to 2009 the crime rate per 100,000 inhabitants declined from 5,950.0 to 3,465.5. By contrast, from 1960 to 1970 the prison population declined from 212,953 to 196,429. The crime rate during this time per 100,000 inhabitants more than doubled from 1,887.2 to 3,984.5. [http://www.jacksonprogressive.com/issues/lawenforcement/punishment.pdf](http://www.jacksonprogressive.com/issues/lawenforcement/punishment.pdf) > **[United States Crime Rates 1960 t0 2019](https://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm)** > > United States crime statistics, United States , United States rape, United States murder, United States property crime, United States crime index, United States violent crime, violent crime in State, United States burglary, United States vehicle... The high cost of incarceration should be dealt with by the thorough use of prison labor. Convicts have debts to pay society. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930/32 "2011-05-24T14:34:50Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > If they cut loose all the people doing time on non-violent, non-sales drug related charges, it will be a good start. How many of those people are there? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930/33 "2011-05-24T14:37:30Z")
How about sending them to Australia? Hasn’t that been done before?😃 ---
**Author:** ![zut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zut/32/2875_2.png) [@zut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zut)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930/34 "2011-05-24T15:38:11Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > If they cut loose all the people doing time on non-violent, non-sales drug related charges, it will be a good start. > [@Shodan](#): > > How many of those are there, and will it make a significant difference? > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > How many of those people are there? The [CALIFORNIA PRISONERS AND PAROLEES 2009Report](http://www.cdcr.ca.gov/Reports_Research/Offender_Information_Services_Branch/Annual/CalPris/CALPRISd2009.pdf) gives a breakdown of California prisoners, as of December 2009 (this seems to be the latest report). The distribution by offense is in Table 8 on page 16; that might be enough information to answer your question. ---
**Author:** ![carm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@carm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930/35 "2011-05-24T15:44:17Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > By contrast, from 1960 to 1970 the prison population declined from 212,953 to 196,429. The crime rate during this time per 100,000 inhabitants more than doubled from 1,887.2 to 3,984.5. Yeah, those 6500 people sure were busy, weren’t they. About 40,000,000 crimes between them over the ten years if my mental arithmetic is correct. Definitely a good idea to have them locked up. 😃 > **[Correlation does not imply causation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation)** > > The phrase "correlation does not imply causation" refers to the inability to legitimately deduce a cause-and-effect relationship between two events or variables solely on the basis of an observed association or correlation between them. The idea that "correlation implies causation" is an example of a questionable-cause logical fallacy, in which two events occurring together are taken to have established a cause-and-effect relationship. This fallacy is also known by the Latin phrase cum hoc As wi... ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930/36 "2011-05-24T16:01:46Z")
> [@](#): > > In the context in which he’s using it, “illegal” is usually used to refer to those people who have entered the country illegally or who have violated immigration law allowing them to be legally in the country. Huh. Why would it mean that, as opposed to anyone who violated any other law? What’s so special about illegal immigrants, as opposed to illegal thieves, illegal drug-dealers, or illegal murderers? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_In_Black)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930/37 "2011-05-24T16:16:48Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Huh. Why would it mean that, as opposed to anyone who violated any other law? What’s so special about illegal immigrants, as opposed to illegal thieves, illegal drug-dealers, or illegal murderers? Did you really not understand the meaning? I find that hard to believe. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930/38 "2011-05-24T16:19:48Z")
I think he’s obtusely objecting to the use of “illegal” as a standalone term. It does sound kind of callous. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930/39 "2011-05-24T16:23:51Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Huh. Why would it mean that, as opposed to anyone who violated any other law? What’s so special about illegal immigrants, as opposed to illegal thieves, illegal drug-dealers, or illegal murderers? Not sure why it would be so hard for you to grasp… Why should the taxpayers of CA be footing the bill to keep over 10,000 illegal immigrant criminals housed in CA prisons instead of deporting them back to prisons in their home country? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930/40 "2011-05-24T16:36:10Z")
Because it would cost just as much to deport them, and some non-zero number would not be imprisoned by their home countries because their crimes aren’t crimes there or their convictions can’t be domesticated. In any case, you can’t deport people without the consent of the receiving country, and other countries often don’t want violent offenders sent back, for obvious reasons. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930.md?page=3)