# Supreme Court says California must release thousands of prisoners **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2011, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930 "2011-05-23T18:32:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930/41 "2011-05-24T16:50:47Z")
> [@](#): > > Did you really not understand the meaning? I find that hard to believe. No, I understand the meaning perfectly. “Illegal” means something that’s against a law, any law. But apparently some people misunderstand it, and think that immigration laws are the only laws it’s possible for anyone to violate. Why would that be? Surely, they have the same status as any other law? ---
**Author:** ![Kiber](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kiber/32/317_2.png) [@Kiber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiber)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930/42 "2011-05-24T16:53:20Z")
Well - NPR had a report yesterday which included this bit: > [@NPR](#): > > As many as 54 prisoners use one toilet, breeding disease, and \*\*medical care is so deficient that one prisoner dies needlessly every six to seven days. \*\* ([bolding mine](http://www.npr.org/2011/05/23/136579580/california-is-ordered-to-cut-its-prison-population)) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930/43 "2011-05-24T16:55:57Z")
> [@zut](#): > > The [CALIFORNIA PRISONERS AND PAROLEES 2009Report](http://www.cdcr.ca.gov/Reports_Research/Offender_Information_Services_Branch/Annual/CalPris/CALPRISd2009.pdf) gives a breakdown of California prisoners, as of December 2009 (this seems to be the latest report). The distribution by offense is in Table 8 on page 16; that might be enough information to answer your question. Thanks. Doesn’t look like there are enough non-sales drug offenders to cover, even if there were no overlapping offenses. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930/44 "2011-05-24T17:03:33Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > What’s so special about illegal immigrants, as opposed to illegal thieves, illegal drug-dealers, or illegal murderers? “Illegal thieves”, “illegal drug-dealers” or “illegal murderers” are all tautologies. “Illegal immigrants” is not. It’s also an accepted meaning of the word according to at least one dictionary. Now, can you drop the pointless diversion? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930/45 "2011-05-24T17:20:57Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The article doesn’t give any details about how/when this must be accomplished. I suspect that if we read the actual opinion, there will be enough wiggle room for the state so that this isn’t just “open the gates tomorrow and let them free”. The NPR report noted that sending them to other states with more space will still be allowed, as is dumping them into county jails. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930/46 "2011-05-24T17:23:56Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > It could be up to their home country to continue incarceration of set them free > > Would no longer be the responsibility of CA or be a burden on the taxpayers And when they come back and commit more crimes, secure in the knowledge that they’ll just get deported again? ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930/47 "2011-05-24T18:34:45Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > And when they come back and commit more crimes, secure in the knowledge that they’ll just get deported again? Which is why I stated in my original comment that with our current border security, they’d be back walking down main street the next day Maybe embed them with tracking chips before deporting… ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930/48 "2011-05-24T19:11:36Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Because it would cost just as much to deport them, and some non-zero number would not be imprisoned by their home countries because their crimes aren’t crimes there or their convictions can’t be domesticated. > > In any case, you can’t deport people without the consent of the receiving country, and other countries often don’t want violent offenders sent back, for obvious reasons. Not to mention, a good number of them are Mexicans, and Mexico is so corrupt and so close to being a narco state, that many have grave doubts if they would really be locked up. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930/49 "2011-05-24T19:12:13Z")
If a person commits a violent crime against me and is also an illegal alien, I sure as hell don’t want them to simply be deported. I want that person to be prosecuted and incarcerated to the full extent of the law. Who cares what their status is, they committed a crime in this country and this country should exact punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930/50 "2011-05-24T19:35:04Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The article doesn’t give any details about how/when this must be accomplished. I suspect that if we read the actual opinion, there will be enough wiggle room for the state so that this isn’t just “open the gates tomorrow and let them free”. It was in a front page [article](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/24/us/24scotus.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper) in _The New York Times_: > [@](#): > > State officials in California will have two years to comply with the order, and they may ask for more time. Justice Kennedy emphasized that the reduction in population need not be achieved solely by releasing prisoners early. Among the other possibilities, he said, are new construction, \*\*transfers out of state \*\*and using county facilities. (emphasis mine) This won’t go over well, politically. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930/51 "2011-05-24T19:42:26Z")
> [@carm](#): > > Yeah, those 6500 people sure were busy, weren’t they. About 40,000,000 crimes between them over the ten years if my mental arithmetic is correct. > Definitely a good idea to have them locked up. 😃 > [Correlation does not imply causation - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation) Each of them committed 1.68 crimes per day over that ten-year span, according to your statistics. 🙂 (Obviously midnight was a particularly dangerous time, what with those 1/3 and 2/3 crimes happening just before and after it.) ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930/52 "2011-05-24T19:50:30Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > Not sure why it would be so hard for you to grasp… > > Why should the taxpayers of CA be footing the bill to keep over 10,000 illegal immigrant criminals housed in CA prisons instead of deporting them back to prisons in their home country? Because, over and above any putative criminal offense they may have committed against the United States of America by being an undocumented resident (Entering the country is a Federal crime; being present within it without current legal authorization is a civil wrong, not a crime – it’s the same distinction as “The Court orders you get your fence off county property” and “Thirty days”) – over and above any offense they may be guilty of here, they committed crimes against the People of the State of California that justified imprisoning them. There is a large distinction between those illegally present within the U.S. and the small subset of them who commit crimes at California law. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930/53 "2011-05-24T19:57:32Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > “Illegal thieves”, “illegal drug-dealers” or “illegal murderers” are all tautologies. “Illegal immigrants” is not. It’s also an accepted meaning of the word according to at least one dictionary. Now, can you drop the pointless diversion? It’s not a “pointless diversion.” “Illegal immigrants” is a phrase with one meaning; “illegals” is an adjective-made-noun which offensively tars illegal immigrants as being the only criminals. And “illegal drug dealers” is not tautological – a legal drug dealer is a registered pharmacist. Just as a legal immigrant is somebody with a green card. And neither are relevant to this discussion. (Right-to-lifers would also note that abortionists could be considered legal murderers, BTW.) ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930/54 "2011-05-25T16:25:26Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > It’s not a “pointless diversion.” “Illegal immigrants” is a phrase with one meaning; “illegals” is an adjective-made-noun which offensively tars illegal immigrants as being the only criminals. It does no such thing. “Illegals” has been slang for “illegal immigrants” for a very long time. And it certainly doesn’t tar them, nor imply that they are the only criminals. It’s hard to believe that there are some people who don’t know this. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_In_Black)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930/55 "2011-05-25T16:51:26Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > No, I understand the meaning perfectly. “Illegal” means something that’s against a law, any law. But apparently some people misunderstand it, and think that immigration laws are the only laws it’s possible for anyone to violate. Why would that be? Surely, they have the same status as any other law? Honestly, I think either you live in a box, or your having a go at us. Words can mean different things when used in different ways. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930/56 "2011-05-25T16:54:33Z")
Did the court ruling say they must be r_eleased_, or that the population must be _reduced_ by an amount? There’s a big difference. Released means they go home, reduced means they are shipped to county and city facilities as well as out of state facilities to cure the overcrowding. I’m in too much of a hurry right now to check the ruling but I’m betting it’s “reduce” not “release.” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930/57 "2011-05-25T17:04:21Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > It could be up to their home country to continue incarceration of set them free > > Would no longer be the responsibility of CA or be a burden on the taxpayers I want you to try something different in regards to immigration. I want you to think for a minute. Let’s say a Mexican who entered our country illegally murdered a member of your family. He was caught and convicted and sentenced to a long prison term. Are you going to feel okay with letting him go free? With the only proviso being he gets sent back to Mexico? I’d rather keep a murderer locked up in an American prison rather than walking free in another country. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930/58 "2011-05-25T17:10:41Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Let’s say a Mexican who entered our country illegally murdered a member of your family. He was caught and convicted and sentenced to a long prison term. He would be locked up because he murdered, not because he’s an immigrant. I don’t think anyone here is advocating releasing murderers because they don’t have their green cards. That’s ridiculous. It does make me wonder, though. Do we lock people up just because they’re illegal immigrants? Don’t we just deport them? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930/59 "2011-05-25T17:10:56Z")
> [@](#): > > As many as 54 prisoners use one toilet, breeding disease, and medical care is so deficient that one prisoner dies needlessly every six to seven days. What do they mean “needlessly”? With overcrowding like that, it sounds like there’s a great need for prisoners to die off. But one prisoner a week isn’t going to do any good. With a backlog of 33,000, they need to have two or three prisoners dying off every hour. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930/60 "2011-05-25T17:19:01Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Did the court ruling say they must be r_eleased_, or that the population must be _reduced_ by an amount? There’s a big difference. Released means they go home, reduced means they are shipped to county and city facilities as well as out of state facilities to cure the overcrowding. I’m in too much of a hurry right now to check the ruling but I’m betting it’s “reduce” not “release.” It is. Gov. Brown was already planning on shipping a bunch of state prisoners to county jails, which would address the court’s ruling. How did this thread turn into a discussion of illegal aliens? What does the presence of dishwashers and landscapers in California have to do with overcrowded state prisons? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/supreme-court-says-california-must-release-thousands-of-prisoners/582930.md?page=4)