# Surely The Lord of the Rings is one of the best stories ever written **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth, books-writing-myths\ **Created:** [May 13, 2024, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-lord-of-the-rings-is-one-of-the-best-stories-ever-written/1001504 "2024-05-13T19:48:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2024, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-lord-of-the-rings-is-one-of-the-best-stories-ever-written/1001504/121 "2024-05-15T02:51:25Z")
I can’t read them. The story might be great, and I do know the gist of the story from the movies, but I don’t like the writing. It seemed slow paced and overly descriptive for my liking. Many obviously disagree and that’s cool, it’s just not my style of book. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2024, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-lord-of-the-rings-is-one-of-the-best-stories-ever-written/1001504/122 "2024-05-15T03:07:16Z")
For what it’s worth, Tolkien did not start thinking and writing about Middle-earth (that is, the universe of the books) in _The Hobbit_ or in _The Lord of the Rings_. He spent most of his adult life thinking about Middle-earth and writing various things about it. There’s a piece (really it’s a fragment) he wrote dated September 24, 1914 which is about it. He decided twenty or so years later to write a relatively short book set in Middle-earth. That’s _The Hobbit_. He then decided to write a long novel about what then happens. That’s _The Lord of the Rings_. Incidentally, it’s a novel that the publisher insisted should be published in three volumes. Tolkien never meant it to be thought of as three novels. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2024, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-lord-of-the-rings-is-one-of-the-best-stories-ever-written/1001504/123 "2024-05-15T03:21:51Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I think Tolkien’s world building is unsurpassed. Just crazy detailed and good Agreed - though, sometimes, TOO detailed. It’s an amazingly rich world, but at times it’s frankly hard to slog through, and hard to get sucked into (that “just one more chapter… crap, it’s 5 AM!” just does not happen for me). I have to think that the series, as written, could not be published today - there would be, at best, SUBSTANTIAL editing required. A very interesting comparison of LOTR and Lois McMaster Bujold’s Sharing Knife series (which notes that Bujold was explicitly inspired by LOTR): [Absent Gods, Absent Catastrophes : The Sharing Knife and The Lord of the Rings - DataHead — LiveJournal](https://bracketyjack.livejournal.com/55942.html) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2024, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-lord-of-the-rings-is-one-of-the-best-stories-ever-written/1001504/124 "2024-05-15T03:52:57Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > And the siege of Gondor - in the movie, the Lord of the Nazgul had creatures that dwarfed the walls of Gondor, I remember thinking they could just step into the city the way you and I step over a curb. He did? I don’t remember anything like that. I don’t think they had anything bigger than the oliphaunts, which were maybe a bit over done, but certainly not bigger than the walls of Gondor. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2024, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-lord-of-the-rings-is-one-of-the-best-stories-ever-written/1001504/125 "2024-05-15T04:09:16Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > You sure seem to have read a lot of it. > > [Speculative fiction - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speculative_fiction) I disagree with that- or maybe that is new. When I read that book, Spec Fic was books that didnt quite mess with reality but were not strictly SF or Fantasy . It did nto included any of those and was a genre in of itself. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > I watched them each in movie theaters at the time of their original release. The extended versions add much of what you listed, its just that the film companies didnt think people would sit thru 4 hour films. Each extended release adds about an hour of good stuff. > [@Miller](#): > > He did? I don’t remember anything like that. I don’t think they had anything bigger than the oliphaunts, which were maybe a bit over done, but certainly not bigger than the walls of Gondor. Nor did I . ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2024, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-lord-of-the-rings-is-one-of-the-best-stories-ever-written/1001504/126 "2024-05-15T04:13:52Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I disagree with that- or maybe that is new. Is 1947 “new?” > [@Wikipedia](#): > > In its [English-language](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language) usage in arts and literature since the mid 20th century, “speculative fiction” as a genre term has often been attributed to [Robert A. Heinlein](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_A._Heinlein), who first used the term in an editorial in _[The Saturday Evening Post](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Saturday_Evening_Post)_, 8 February 1947. In the article, Heinlein used “Speculative Fiction” as a synonym for “science fiction”; in a later piece, he explicitly stated that his use of the term did not include fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2024, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-lord-of-the-rings-is-one-of-the-best-stories-ever-written/1001504/127 "2024-05-15T04:45:11Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Is 1947 “new?” Well, I see that. But the only book I have ever seen marketed as Speculative Fiction are not true SF or fantasy. China Mieville write that genre. So I guess i was fooled by the marketing. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2024, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-lord-of-the-rings-is-one-of-the-best-stories-ever-written/1001504/128 "2024-05-15T05:24:07Z")
What Miéville writes is the Weird Fiction metagenre, in various genres, from traditional Fantasy (Bas Lag books), Urban Fantasy (Kraken, King Rat), Science Fiction (Embassytown),police procedural(The City and The City), KidLit (Railsea, UnLunDun). They are all amazing. He’s easily in my top 5 writers. But there’s nothing in the Bas Lag books that isn’t Fantasy, or in Kraken that isn’t Urban Fantasy. They aren’t outside those genres. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2024, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-lord-of-the-rings-is-one-of-the-best-stories-ever-written/1001504/129 "2024-05-15T07:11:05Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Tolkien never meant it to be thought of as three novels. In fact, in so far as Tolkien considered it to be broken into parts, he considered it to be a novel with six parts. The three volumes each contain two of the parts. In addition, the third volume contains six appendices. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2024, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-lord-of-the-rings-is-one-of-the-best-stories-ever-written/1001504/130 "2024-05-15T11:29:10Z")
> [@Mama\_Zappa](#): > > Agreed - though, sometimes, TOO detailed. It’s an amazingly rich world, but at times it’s frankly hard to slog through, and hard to get sucked into (that “just one more chapter… crap, it’s 5 AM!” just does not happen for me). It’s not that kind of book (a “just one more chapter”) book. It’s the kind of book that’s easy to pick up, read a few pages, put down, pick back up again… Maybe it helped that, when I first read LOTR, they were the books I carried around with me and read a bit of whenever I had a bit of free time during the day. I think Ursula K. Le Guin has said something similar, but right now I’m not sure where my copy of her _[The Language of the Night](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2037132.Language_Of_The_Night)_ is. The closest I could find online is the following: > [@](#): > > The rhythm that shapes and directs his narrative is noticeable, was noticeable to me, because it is very strong and very simple, as simple as a rhythm can be: two beats. Stress, release. Inbreath, outbreath. A heartbeat. A walking gait—but on so vast a scale, so capable of endlessly complex and subtle variation, that it carries the whole enormous narrative straight through from beginning to end, from There to Back Again, without faltering. The fact is, we _walk_ from the Shire to the Mountain of Doom with Frodo and Sam. One, two, left, right, on foot, all the way. And back. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2024, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-lord-of-the-rings-is-one-of-the-best-stories-ever-written/1001504/131 "2024-05-15T13:29:05Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > The fact is, we _walk_ from the Shire to the Mountain of Doom with Frodo and Sam. One, two, left, right, on foot, all the way. And back. “on foot, all the way. And back” - hey, what about the _eagles?_ They got an avian assist for the first leg of the trip back from Mt. Doom! And for the obvious reason that a lot less is happening on the homeward trip than on the way out, Tolkien is a lot less ‘one, two, left, right’ on the return trip (as far as Bree, anyway), giving details of the high points and skimming lightly over the rest, giving the general tone more than a lot of detail. There’s a Howard the Duck comic where the cover asks the question, “Where do you go, what do you do, the night after you’ve saved the Universe?” The homeward trip (again, up to Bree) is Tolkien’s answer to that question (two decades or so before it was asked 😉), and it’s a satisfying one. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2024, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-lord-of-the-rings-is-one-of-the-best-stories-ever-written/1001504/132 "2024-05-15T14:05:32Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > There’s a Howard the Duck comic where the cover asks the question, “Where do you go, what do you do, the night after you’ve saved the Universe?” The homeward trip (again, up to Bree) is Tolkien’s answer to that question (two decades or so before it was asked 😉), and it’s a satisfying one. I like the ending portions, but the hill I’ll die on is that the Tom Bombadil stuff should have been cut. I swore to myself next time I read it, I’ll skip it. He’s such a weird character. At least Tolkien realized they better mention him at the Council of the Ring and had them quickly dismiss him as a caretaker of the Ring or it would have been a pretty obvious oversight. I’m glad the movies cut him completely. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2024, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-lord-of-the-rings-is-one-of-the-best-stories-ever-written/1001504/133 "2024-05-15T14:06:34Z")
Incidentally, both _The Hobbit_ and _The Lord of the Rings_ are among the best selling books of all time. If one ignores religious texts like _The Bible_ or _The Koran_ and also political texts that were required to be owned by most people in a country like _The Quotations of Mao Tse-Tung_, _The Hobbit_ and _The Lord of the Rings_ are among the eight books that have sold somewhere between 100 million and 200 million copies. In counting the number of copies of _The Lord of the Rings_ that have been sold, you add together the copies with all three in a single volume to a second number which is the number of copies of the least sold of the three volumes published separately. So if the number sold was (to just make up some numbers which aren’t anywhere close to the real numbers) 86,159,502,897 copies of the volumes containing all three in one volume and 92,034,104,456 of _The Return of the King_ in a separate volume (and slightly more for the other two), the number of copies sold would be 178,193,607,353. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2024, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-lord-of-the-rings-is-one-of-the-best-stories-ever-written/1001504/134 "2024-05-15T14:13:25Z")
I think there could have been some good explanations for Bombadil but they were never given. Tolkien shot down all fan favorites for some reason and never provided an answer for us. My best guess is he wanted one thing in there to fuck with us for all time. Jackson left him out of the movies. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2024, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-lord-of-the-rings-is-one-of-the-best-stories-ever-written/1001504/135 "2024-05-15T14:14:54Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > My best guess is he wanted one thing in there to fuck with us for all time. I think he just really loved the character and like a director who loves his movie too much, he didn’t edit out an unnecessary scene if it would move the story along. Since the rest works so well, I don’t mind. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2024, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-lord-of-the-rings-is-one-of-the-best-stories-ever-written/1001504/136 "2024-05-15T14:15:56Z")
It may be apocryphal but I _think_ I once read that Tom Bombadil was a doll one of his daughters had so he put it in. (I really do not know.) ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2024, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-lord-of-the-rings-is-one-of-the-best-stories-ever-written/1001504/137 "2024-05-15T14:22:38Z")
That is actually correct. Tom was based on his son Michael’s Dutch doll. Also to paraphrase Professor Tolkien, he said a good world has some enigmas, Tom is one of them. Wiki to the rescue: > **[Tom Bombadil | Tolkien](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Bombadil#Tolkien)** > > Tolkien stated that he invented Tom Bombadil in memory of his children's Dutch doll.\[a\] His Bombadil poems far pre-date the writing of The Lord of the Rings, into which Tolkien introduced Tom Bombadil from the earliest drafts.\[T 7\] In response to a letter, Tolkien described Tom in The Lord of the Rings as "just an invention" and "not an important person – to the narrative", even if "he represents something that I feel important, though I would not be prepared to analyse the feeling precise Tolkie... The quote I paraphrased from memory: _“even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)”_ * * * * * * For a lot of people, this is Tom in a nutshell: curtesy of Bored of the Rings. _Toke-a-lid! Smoke-a-lid! Pop the mescalino!_ _Stash the hash! Gonna crash! Make mine methedrino!_ _Hop a hill! Pop a pill! For Old Tim Benzedrino!_ * * * * * * Myself, I always picture him looking a lot like Ian Anderson of Jethro Tull from _Songs from the Wood_ period. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2024, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-lord-of-the-rings-is-one-of-the-best-stories-ever-written/1001504/138 "2024-05-15T14:30:47Z")
I think the frustration with Tom Bombadil is a great example of how modern readers expect an explanation for everything. There’s little tolerance for unresolved mysteries. Not that there’s anything wrong with that; we all have our preferences. And there’s always some tension between what an author intends to convey and what the reader actually perceives. Tolkien intended to have this piece of his creation be unresolved, and a reader either accepts the author’s intention or rebels against it. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2024, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-lord-of-the-rings-is-one-of-the-best-stories-ever-written/1001504/139 "2024-05-15T14:49:54Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Tolkien intended to have this piece of his creation be unresolved, and a reader either accepts the author’s intention or rebels against it. To me it just seems weird that this intricately detailed world had this random enigma tossed in. It’s incongruous with this massive and incredibly finely wrought world. > [@What\_Exit](#): > > The quote I paraphrased from memory: > _“even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)”_ That is not satisfying to me. Of course, I was not consulted. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2024, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-lord-of-the-rings-is-one-of-the-best-stories-ever-written/1001504/140 "2024-05-15T14:52:59Z")
No, I don’t need an explanation. I just find his chapter(s) very silly and sidetracking. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-lord-of-the-rings-is-one-of-the-best-stories-ever-written/1001504.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-lord-of-the-rings-is-one-of-the-best-stories-ever-written/1001504.md?page=8)