# Surely the mass of humanity is more "awful" now than it was before "The Great Flood" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 18, 2020, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-mass-of-humanity-is-more-awful-now-than-it-was-before-the-great-flood/848129 "2020-02-18T22:02:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2020, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-mass-of-humanity-is-more-awful-now-than-it-was-before-the-great-flood/848129/21 "2020-02-19T13:49:51Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Yes, but that was only a promise that there would be no more destruction [by water.](https://biblehub.com/genesis/9-11.htm) The next such (indeed, greater) destruction will be [by fire.](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Peter+3%3A10&version=NLV) Some say the world will end in fire, . . . . Some say in ice. From what I’ve tasted of desire I hold with those who favor fire. . . . . But if it had to perish twice, I think I know enough of hate . . . . To know that for destruction ice Is also great, . . . . And would suffice. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2020, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-mass-of-humanity-is-more-awful-now-than-it-was-before-the-great-flood/848129/22 "2020-02-19T14:09:54Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > I have no doubt you have volumes of well researched data for the prebiblical era so I’m sure your every confidence is well founded. Steven Pinker, in his bestselling book _[The Better Angels of Our Nature](https://www.amazon.com/Better-Angels-Our-Nature-Violence/dp/B005SA64YS/ref=sr_1_3?crid=RLGJQ4HG1666&keywords=steven+pinker&qid=1582120972&s=books&sprefix=Steven+p%2Cstripbooks%2C204&sr=1-3)_, uses archeological and historical evidence to show that rates of violence have steadily declined over the course of human history and are now at the lowest levels ever, despite our media-fueled perceptions to the contrary. [This article](https://towardsdatascience.com/has-global-violence-declined-a-look-at-the-data-5af708f47fba)looks at his arguments and those of some of his critics, and concludes that although not perfect, Pinker’s case is pretty solid. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2020, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-mass-of-humanity-is-more-awful-now-than-it-was-before-the-great-flood/848129/23 "2020-02-19T15:14:39Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > What’s the earliest documented instance of an evil human? Other than Adam and Eve’s original sin, probably Cain, the first reported murderer. ---
**Author:** ![Kovitlac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/2bfe46/32.png) [@Kovitlac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kovitlac)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2020, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-mass-of-humanity-is-more-awful-now-than-it-was-before-the-great-flood/848129/24 "2020-02-19T15:21:55Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > I have no doubt you have volumes of well researched data for the prebiblical era so I’m sure your every confidence is well founded. Easy to be snarky when you’re fed, hydrated, not drafted into slavery or dead from whatever plague was _en vogue_ at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2020, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-mass-of-humanity-is-more-awful-now-than-it-was-before-the-great-flood/848129/25 "2020-02-19T15:32:43Z")
> [@2Bits](#): > > Whatever those folks (except for Noah) were doing that inspired God to “wipe the slate clean” must’ve paled in its degree of badness as compared our current state of horribleness. No? No, of course not. I know plenty of good people. We are nowhere close to a situation where “every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.” ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2020, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-mass-of-humanity-is-more-awful-now-than-it-was-before-the-great-flood/848129/26 "2020-02-19T15:33:37Z")
God’s definition of right and wrong doesn’t seem to match up with the typical human’s. I mean, think of all the oblivious heathens that had no clue you shouldn’t work on the Sabbath, wear mixed fabrics, eat pork, etc. Mass genocide is generally looked down upon by humans as well. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2020, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-mass-of-humanity-is-more-awful-now-than-it-was-before-the-great-flood/848129/27 "2020-02-19T16:02:44Z")
> [@Kovitlac](#): > > Easy to be snarky when you’re fed, hydrated, not drafted into slavery or dead from whatever plague was _en vogue_ at the time. Ddamn; that post sucks. It is so far off the mark… ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2020, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-mass-of-humanity-is-more-awful-now-than-it-was-before-the-great-flood/848129/28 "2020-02-19T16:10:08Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > think of all the oblivious heathens that had no clue you shouldn’t work on the Sabbath, wear mixed fabrics, eat pork, etc. Those restrictions only applied to the Israelites. > [@Ashtura](#): > > God’s definition of right and wrong doesn’t seem to match up with the typical human’s. It’s not like we have a veto over God or that He has to be accountable to us. ---
**Author:** ![2Bits](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e95f7d/32.png) [@2Bits](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2Bits)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2020, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-mass-of-humanity-is-more-awful-now-than-it-was-before-the-great-flood/848129/29 "2020-02-19T16:17:00Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > No, of course not. I know plenty of good people. We are nowhere close to a situation where “every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.” Do you imagine a world existed where Noah (and some close family members) were the only “good people” worth saving? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2020, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-mass-of-humanity-is-more-awful-now-than-it-was-before-the-great-flood/848129/30 "2020-02-19T16:54:05Z")
> [@2Bits](#): > > Do you imagine a world existed where Noah (and some close family members) were the only “good people” worth saving? If you take the story literally, then yes, it explicitly says so. If you don’t take it literally, then what are we comparing our current world to, anyway? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2020, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-mass-of-humanity-is-more-awful-now-than-it-was-before-the-great-flood/848129/31 "2020-02-19T17:47:17Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Ddamn; that post sucks. It is so far off the mark… Why do you say that? Surely, these are the most peaceful, most disesase- and famine-free and least violent times for humans in recorded history. I haven’t read Better Angels of Our Nature, but I’ve read lots by him and he makes a good case for this in other venues. Maybe things were better in our hunter-gatherer stage? Doubtful, but maybe when there are only a few thousand modern humans, disease was less of a factor? ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2020, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-mass-of-humanity-is-more-awful-now-than-it-was-before-the-great-flood/848129/32 "2020-02-19T18:58:21Z")
As others have noted, the question is complicated by changes in what is considered “awful”. There was more slavery back then, but since the Bible contains advice to slaves on how to be good slaves, I would assume that God didn’t feel as bad about slavery as he (presumably) does today. There was more human sacrifice than there is today, but God seemed to sometimes \*like \*that. > [@2Bits](#): > > Can’t find a “Noah” this time? There’s a joke about Diogenes going out searching for an honest man today. Not only was his search unsuccessful, but someone stole his lantern. ---
**Author:** ![2Bits](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e95f7d/32.png) [@2Bits](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2Bits)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2020, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-mass-of-humanity-is-more-awful-now-than-it-was-before-the-great-flood/848129/33 "2020-02-19T19:56:18Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Why do you say that? Surely, these are the most peaceful, most disesase- and famine-free and least violent times for humans in recorded history. I haven’t read Better Angels of Our Nature, but I’ve read lots by him and he makes a good case for this in other venues. > > Maybe things were better in our hunter-gatherer stage? Doubtful, but maybe when there are only a few thousand modern humans, disease was less of a factor? This and other posts mention disease. I’ll take for granted that there was plenty of horrible diseases in pre-flood days why would that be even a small part of God deciding to drown most everybody (and every thing)? And does being more disease and famine free somehow equate to being less sinful? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2020, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-mass-of-humanity-is-more-awful-now-than-it-was-before-the-great-flood/848129/34 "2020-02-19T21:46:22Z")
> [@2Bits](#): > > This and other posts mention disease. I’ll take for granted that there was plenty of horrible diseases in pre-flood days why would that be even a small part of God deciding to drown most everybody (and every thing)? > > And does being more disease and famine free somehow equate to being less sinful? OK, take disease out of it. I don’t think there’s any question that rape, murder, war, violent crimes were more prevalent at practically every time in the past compared to today. Now, less sinful? No idea, since I’m not a theologian. My limited understanding of the bible leads me to think that rape, murder, war, and slavery were not really sins as long as they were being done outside of the tribe. I would consider it a sin to kill all the men from a town you just fought and enslave or rape the women, but I’m pretty sure that’s encouraged in at least some parts of the bible. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2020, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-mass-of-humanity-is-more-awful-now-than-it-was-before-the-great-flood/848129/35 "2020-02-19T22:04:27Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > My limited understanding of the bible leads me to think that rape, murder, war, and slavery were not really sins as long as they were being done outside of the tribe. I would consider it a sin to kill all the men from a town you just fought and enslave or rape the women, but I’m pretty sure that’s encouraged in at least some parts of the bible. So it is not that people have improved (they have) but that God is less awful now than in antediluvial times? God seems to have been a psychopathic bastard in those days; nowadays he seems to have mellowed somewhat. Either way, the question posed by the OP seems to be answered; people are better behaved now than in the past, and God isn’t such a jerk. It’s a win-win. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2020, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-mass-of-humanity-is-more-awful-now-than-it-was-before-the-great-flood/848129/36 "2020-02-19T22:20:34Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > My limited understanding of the bible leads me to think that rape, murder, war, and slavery were not really sins as long as they were being done outside of the tribe. I would consider it a sin to kill all the men from a town you just fought and enslave or rape the women, but I’m pretty sure that’s encouraged in at least some parts of the bible. Deuteronomy 21: [God gave Israelite soldiers to take captive enemy women as their wives](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+21%3A10-25%3A19&version=NIV) I Samuel 15: [God commanded the genocide of the Amalekites](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Samuel+15&version=ERV) But also, the Israelites were commanded: [“You must not exploit a foreigner, for you were foreigners in Egypt.”](https://www.biblehub.com/exodus/22-21.htm) And when harvesting grain, they were ordered to [leave some for foreigners and the poor to gather.](https://biblehub.com/leviticus/23-22.htm) In addition, [“When a foreigner resides with you in your land, you must not oppress him. You must treat the foreigner living among you as native-born and love him as yourself, for you were foreigners in the land of Egypt. I am the LORD your God.”](https://biblehub.com/leviticus/19-34.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Arkcon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Arkcon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arkcon)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2020, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-mass-of-humanity-is-more-awful-now-than-it-was-before-the-great-flood/848129/37 "2020-02-20T01:24:06Z")
Doesn’t the Hebraic bible specifically say that “there were giants among men at that time”, the offspring of angels – the Nephalim and women they found fair? I believe the decision by God to destroy the civilizations of the Earth comes shortly after this is announced. Wait a minute, isn’t that exactly what the Homeric myths have Zeus say as his reason for the Trojan War – to remove his offspring from the human gene pool? Seriously, are all bible stories badly copied myths? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2020, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-mass-of-humanity-is-more-awful-now-than-it-was-before-the-great-flood/848129/38 "2020-02-20T01:27:42Z")
> [@Arkcon](#): > > Doesn’t the Hebraic bible specifically say that “there were giants among men at that time”, the offspring of angels – the Nephalim and women they found fair? I believe the decision by God to destroy the civilizations of the Earth comes shortly after this is announced. > > Wait a minute, isn’t that exactly what the Homeric myths have Zeus say as his reason for the Trojan War – to remove his offspring from the human gene pool? > > Seriously, are all bible stories badly copied myths? See post #15. Just an editing error. Whoever put the separate myths together forgot to remove that old one which was no longer operative. And so God sent his only sons - to save you from your virginity! ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2020, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-mass-of-humanity-is-more-awful-now-than-it-was-before-the-great-flood/848129/39 "2020-02-20T19:19:14Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Wasn’t the flood just a gigantic myth based on the fact that the black sea flooded and all the cultures near the area invented a flood mythology? I think it’s more that all early civilizations were based near bodies of water that flooded occasionally, making them well acquainted with the phenomenon, than that any particular flood is the basis for all the different “great flood” myths. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2020, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-mass-of-humanity-is-more-awful-now-than-it-was-before-the-great-flood/848129/40 "2020-02-20T19:34:56Z")
> [@Arkcon](#): > > Doesn’t the Hebraic bible specifically say that “there were giants among men at that time”, the offspring of angels – the Nephalim and women they found fair? I believe the decision by God to destroy the civilizations of the Earth comes shortly after this is announced. The whole line is “The Nephilim were in the earth in those days”. What exactly Nephelim were is not mentioned anywhere in the five books of Moses. It is usually translated into English as “Giants”. There is a different passage that says 'The sons of Heaven fell for the daughters of men" Whether this means angels (As mentioned the apocryphal Book Of Enoch posits a group of angels known as Watchers or Grigori. They were assigned to teach and guide humanity but fell, had sex with human women and begat the Nephilim) having sex with human women or simply priests, scholars and scribes neglecting their duties for fleshy pleasures is open to debate. While We’re On The Subject Of Biblical Destruction According to the Talmud, the sin of Sodom and Gammorah was NOT homosexuality. There are folk stories going back milennia about how cruel and selfish the people of the twin cities were. You don’t get ‘the folks in Sodom were so gay that . . .’ until Paul shows up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-mass-of-humanity-is-more-awful-now-than-it-was-before-the-great-flood/848129.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surely-the-mass-of-humanity-is-more-awful-now-than-it-was-before-the-great-flood/848129.md?page=3)