OK, so now it’s I implied something.
Where do I imply masks are useless?
And how is turning your back towards someone as a way of avoiding getting coughed or sneezed at in any way facetious? It’s pretty much common sense. Much better than facing them with a mask I would think.
Just did. I suggest you do the same.
I think you’re referring to my post.
Using a mask to keep hydration and the fact that dampness lowers a masks filtration efficiency are not mutually exclusive. Both can be true at the same time. Decide to what purpose you want to wear a mask or which is more important.
Ok, I’ll bite.
And probably other reasons if I were to think about it, but I hope we’re done here.
I believe part of the reason they discourage use of N95 masks (to be specific about a type*) is that there basically aren’t any relative to the maximum need. HHS testified recently to Congress that around 3.5 billion N95’s would be needed over a year of a ‘full blown pandemic’ but the govt stockpile was around 1% of that number.
This was quoted as the need for medical professionals, first responders etc. but if there’s ‘no evidence’ the masks help, why would even they need them?
I agree with KC’s point that the message on this is at least in part tailored to the fact of nowhere remotely near the necessary number of masks for general use by the public. IOW yeah, I do think they’d discourage their use by the general public if there’s a few % (let’s be generous) of the number needed just by professionals, and there might be a bit of fudging about how ‘useless’ they are to the general public. It’s not like they are telling the public not to use something the public could actually access on a meaningful scale if it becomes a true pandemic.
A paper with an estimate of number of ‘respirators’ needed written before this in view of some kind of serious flu pandemic, 1.7-7.3 billion depending on scenario
https://watermark.silverchair.com/civ141.pdf?token=AQECAHi208BE49Ooan9kkhW_Ercy7Dm3ZL_9Cf3qfKAc485ysgAAAl4wggJaBgkqhkiG9w0BBwagggJLMIICRwIBADCCAkAGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAeBglghkgBZQMEAS4wEQQMYb6AuG_dRvUtClqjAgEQgIICEa2jXwFbuDBERmZnCA7dWKeiisMu-5KTy8sYUXQr6lTp5tmTgQPQqtkk8EAmEsD4nMeL8VrDehcj8hL-KBL6N9hnqUFHqj48_Bqt97dQRYhoRMSNrSlFRwCbrNAHRbsmRJZWXvnQCJTyg9pNP1ruDZsEZWA69Db1WtVBOYzKe-HFwlbvAq-k9CgzpJHWXyq0FqjiuRT1Drg2pNT2DKjWWNGZoWKV7sK4OYyfHjt3HRXRDTWLJizyjPpk_BYM7E8ZIvhikttz2PTFzbdM1hrQzJQldH9j4X4hG6KXl8CYchShwSe4QsODqu4Xtqh0foyEI00ERVaa4rn0HeIciA9M4fYkrxCuET9xIB5ZTs9be-x4FNyJlUOu2NakpRAhO4UHDnSuHGi-EWZU-Q6H4Sd_KhjkkDESqeR0hoTgAt8Z1ToAgyjJnbLuFZKxKt55QKPrtKZTwGKT5hFWDCRbbjSKMwHZZFFYNkJpjX8kH4b0N-n3Wn6jTtHfMKLHvLetJojkxHQ9cdw_coegpXhTo0xvtf8y4aVnFyAn3ZrLGxCYDwpMxkFAxvNIC_3Xv83F5gtxAZ4MB1IrfT2sgjK9ch1VERI9O0hu_ev_UOEIdUTWfkJOrU1mdzXukxqRkUd3YV2HUvyY-dqe_efVs3A3eNDEh0l3e3KzqS1C4KuvWCfQ9FQUy4xBw-glsSn1TbptrAzijPE
*there isn’t really much debate about loosely fitting surgical masks, and N95’s are, or were, a standard item at home improvement stores for projects where you also need good protection, not an exotic item at all…till everybody wants them.
Is that what we’re doing? Coming up with contrived situations to fit the narrative? How about:
Btw, this is what’s called being facetious.
What? I am talking about going outside interacting with other humans. How on earth is that a contrived situation?
After finishing this post I need to go outside and buy some things. My contrived situation is coming to fruition!
Being facetious means giving a non-serious or flippant response to a serious issue.
Being charitable I have to assume your “turn your back” suggestion was not meant seriously because the flaws with that idea are very obvious. I enumerated three of them, which you have chosen to ignore.
I think you’re taking a very narrow view of things and trying to create situations where a solution might not work. I don’t think that’s very productive nor forwarding the discussion.
Turning your back to someone who is coughing or sneezing at you is neither rude nor unwarranted. In fact, I bet you would turn your head and shoulders instinctively. I would argue the person doing the coughing without covering up was rude.
Honestly, this made me laugh and thought maybe a kid came up with this. I guess if all these coughing people decide to surround you simultaneously and prevent your escape I suppose a mask is the only viable solution. But I hope you close your eyes lest saliva gets in your tear ducts. Oh wait, how will you see and get to where you need to go?
Unless you’re both walking on a plank, I think it’s fair to say there should be some room to maneuver so we’re not walking into a direct line of cough. If you’re saying they might be holding in their cough and waiting to unleash until they’re right in your face, I would say that could be construed as an act of bioterrorism and wishing you were wearing a mask would be the least of your worries.
No, I am talking about going outdoors encountering people.
Because here’s the thing: I don’t know in advance who is going to cough and when. People can and do cough mid-sentence.
Yes, it’s possible you see the intake of breath that precedes a sneeze, say, but it’s also possible that in that second I’m looking at my phone, or watch, or doing whatever.
And when you bear in mind the size of the cloud made by a sneeze, it’s not at all contrived to imagine someone outside of my field of view, or that was just in my peripheral vision, sending some droplets my way (or indeed: leaving droplets in space that I walk into), even if they tried to contain the sneeze.
Again, I am not talking about what protective measures to do in the event of actually seeing a sneeze, I was talking about the protective measures of going outdoors into a public space where you are not always going to have the luxury of seeing a sneeze coming.
But yes, if someone were to sneeze right in my face I would instinctively flinch away. I probably would not have time to actually turn my back though, which were your words.
Maybe a kid came up with it, or maybe a straw man?
Because who is talking about everyone around me coughing? Apart from you?
I’m talking about reasonable protective measures walking into a public space.
:rolleyes:
Anyway, back on topic, I noticed while doing my errands that masks have become almost a fashion item here.
Not only are a number of people wearing expensive mouth respirator masks, but many are in bright colors with branding on the side. I guess it’s inevitable: when everyone is wearing masks outdoors, and masks are getting very expensive (apart from surgical masks, which are being rationed out), what better way to show off your social status?
I don’t see any actual benefit though: if you have a mask that seals around the skin, and blocks droplets, the next obvious upgrade to me is eye goggles, which these masks do not have.
Or is the denser filter some benefit for the hypothesized “aerosol” situation with micro-droplets?
It’s described in a quotation earlier in this thread,
https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=22171312&postcount=25
Taken from a pre-print (un-reviewed) paper on medrxiv
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.02.18.20021881v1
" no one in the respirator group became infected. "
So you want to wear a surgical mask to avoid getting spat on the facial area in situations where you have no time to react or can’t anticipate. Do I have this right? I agree that masks will help in this situation by the very fact they’ll act as a physical barrier, but why would you insist on them when there are better and more practical solutions? They’re flimsy, uncomfortable to breathe, unsanitary, only acts a partial barrier… There much better ways of achieving your intended goal, like wearing a full face visor or even a niqab. Go with a burka and protect your entire body.
I’m not saying masks are ineffective, just impractical and maybe even socially irresponsible in these times because there are people who are more in need of those them, like those already sick or suspected of being infected, and health care workers who work on frontline and come into close contact with high risk patients on a daily basis. How often are people catching you with surprise coughs? I’m sure it can and does happen but are people really coughing in your face every day? That’s why governments and health organizations are discouraging their use by the general public. Masks aren’t bad for you but the risk you are mitigating is nominal compared to those faced by others and people panic buying them doesn’t help anyone and only gives a false peace of mind.
Thanks but that’s not quite the question I’m asking. I’m asking whether there’s any benefit to wearing a respirator vs a well-fitting (no gaps with the skin) N95 mask.
I guess thinking about it, one benefit is that the former can be used for long periods, whereas the N95 becomes less effective as it becomes damp from exhaled air. I’m not sure if there’s any other benefit besides that though.
Well, “getting spat on” is a funny way to put it (we’re talking about tiny droplets, some might be just about visible, many are not), but OK.
I didn’t insist on masks.
And I disagree that a burka is a more practical solution. Or indeed that a burka provides any protective benefit. Droplets can pass through the material of a burka.
Where I live (Shanghai), masks are being rationed out to everyone. The point is, they don’t just provide peace of mind, but yes of course there are better solutions and these are mostly being used by medical staff like respirator + eye goggles or full hazmat suits.
Uh, I don’t usually know in advance that someone is about to cough or sneeze in my general direction. Do you?
I get the feeling you don’t take public transit, don’t ever spend time with children, and generally have little close contact in your day-to-day life.
Two out of your three assumptions are wrong but not knowing when someone is about to sneeze has nothing to do with a mask’s effectiveness in preventing infection.
It has a great deal to do with the relative effectiveness of turning your back on a person who is about to cough or sneeze on you as compared to wearing a mask.
What?
An N95 mask is a respirator. People are mostly talking about N95 respirators, which are very effective when properly fitted, and surgical masks, which are looser and often gap at the sides. Surgical masks still block droplets (going either direction) but if there are fine particles that are following airflow (finer than sneeze or couch spray) they can flow around the mask.
Ah I see, ignorance fought. For some reason I thought a respirator needed to have the large, gas-mask style cartridges on the side. This was the kind of mask I was trying to describe previously.
Let me go back to the OP because it would help to have some definitions.
A surgical mask is the kind that loops around the ears. It will likely provide some protection from direct droplet contact but aerosolized particles can reach you where it gaps.
An N95 mask is a form of respirator. It has a better filter that the standard surgical mask but it needs to be correctly fitted to provide significant protection. Just wearing one that fits “close to the skin” it not the same as being properly fit tested. An N95 mask/respirator needs to be of the correct size and model to fit the individual person. When worn correctly, they should not be adjusted or moved. They are hot and uncomfortable and they do restrict your breathing. Medical personnel coming in contact with high risk patients should wear properly fit tested N95 masks. The standard layperson buying them off the shelf regardless of size or model and not using them appropriately will have the same risk of virus contact through any gaps as they would with a standard surgical mask. As someone who has been properly fit tested and trained in the past, I will tell you that something as simple as bending my neck down is enough to let in unfiltered air.