# Surnames associated with a particular ancestry **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 25, 2007, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surnames-associated-with-a-particular-ancestry/416899 "2007-08-25T16:32:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![ForumBot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ee59a6/32.png) [@ForumBot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ForumBot)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2007, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surnames-associated-with-a-particular-ancestry/416899/61 "2007-08-27T08:01:05Z")
My last name, which is “Carnage” but replace the C with an H, means descent from a village just outside of Shropshire, England. Can’t get more specific than that. Sorry for the extra confusion, just a bit paranoid about becoming google-able. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2007, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surnames-associated-with-a-particular-ancestry/416899/62 "2007-08-27T10:20:14Z")
[QUOTE=ForumBot] My last name, which is “Carnage” but replace the C with an H, means descent from a village just outside of Shropshire, England. Can’t get more specific than that. Sorry for the extra confusion, just a bit paranoid about becoming google-able. [/QUOTE] Just outside Shrewsbury, in Shropshire, perhaps? 🙂 And it’s certainly a small place: [http://www.streetmap.co.uk/streetmap.dll?G2M?X=356500&Y=304500&A=Y&Z=4](http://www.streetmap.co.uk/streetmap.dll?G2M?X=356500&Y=304500&A=Y&Z=4) Regional surnames still survive in Britain. One friend, from Yorkshire, has a name which origintates from there, filling several pages of the phone book. Here, down sarrrf, there’s only half-a-dozen entries. ---
**Author:** ![Alive\_At\_Both\_Ends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/73ab20/32.png) [@Alive\_At\_Both\_Ends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alive_At_Both_Ends)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2007, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surnames-associated-with-a-particular-ancestry/416899/63 "2007-08-27T11:34:50Z")
[QUOTE=Siam Sam] I believe there’s only a handful of surnames in Korea, so few that South Korea has rules against marrying someone with the same surname. [/QUOTE] How does that rule increase the number of surnames? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2007, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surnames-associated-with-a-particular-ancestry/416899/64 "2007-08-27T11:48:22Z")
> [@](#): > > -ovich or -ovna as the middle name is definitely Russian, as is -ov as the last name. Not definitely. The Polish “-wicz” or “-witz” is the same ending, and pronounced the same. And, has been mentioned above, Ellis Island can change spellings. As can people – I know people in the current generation that are altering spellings themselves to make them more pronouneable. **Captain Socks** lists “-witz” among the common “Jewish” surnames. I don’t know if he’s being facetious, but it’s worth pointing out that all those names are Eastern European (-vic, -witz, -wicz, etc occurs in many Slavic tongues), and these suffixes aren’t Jewish at all – they’re typical Eastern European name endings. You can have them and not be Jewish. You can be Jewish (i.e. – west European, or something more exotic) and not have them. And, of course, you needn’t have any particular ending. My name is Polish, not shortened or respelled, and doesn’t end in any variation of -ski or -wicz. And such endings can be misleading. I thought for years that the name “McClusky” must be an invention because it combines that Gaelic “Mac–” with the slavic “.sky”. But there are such Gaelic names ending in “–sky”. Many Armenian names end in -ian or -yan. But it’s not universal. The famous Canadian photographer Karsh was Armenian. And ending in -ian, -ion, or whatever doesn’t guarantee Armenian-ness. Again, frequentkly languages in a region are similar enough. Prince Bagration, of the battle of Borodino, wasn’t Armenian, but his family hailed from nearby. And don’t forget Lando Kalrizzian, who’s not a black Armenian from outer space (although I suspecxt Howard Kazanjian’s name inspired his). I haven’t noticed if it’s been pointed out, but in most cases these “typical of an ethnicity” endings all connote “son of” or “from the X”. The ubiquity of such endings or beginnings becomes pretty clear in that light. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2007, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surnames-associated-with-a-particular-ancestry/416899/65 "2007-08-27T12:31:29Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] People with the name Katz are originally descended from the Israelite tribe of Kohen - the name Katz is actually an abbreviation for **K** ohen **TZ** adik, meaning in Hebrew, “Blessed is the Kohen clan.” [/QUOTE] This smacks so much of folk (i.e., mistaken) etymology, that I’m going to have to ask for a cite. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2007, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surnames-associated-with-a-particular-ancestry/416899/66 "2007-08-27T12:47:44Z")
[QUOTE=JKellyMap] This smacks so much of folk (i.e., mistaken) etymology, that I’m going to have to ask for a cite. [/QUOTE] (Re: _Katz_) The etymology given above is lightly, but not very, corrupt – Katz **is** an acronym of _“Cohen Tzedek”_ – literally, “Priest of Justice.” There are many people who write the name Katz in Hebrew as כ"ץ (the quote-mark denotes abbreviations in (Modern) Hebrew), and quite a few people simply named _Cohen-Tzedek_ (spelled out in full) Of course, this \*\*could \*\*be a case of “reverse etymology” – people taking a folk-etymlogy and applying it backwards… I’ll try and look for a real cite later, at home. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2007, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surnames-associated-with-a-particular-ancestry/416899/67 "2007-08-27T14:00:08Z")
[QUOTE=Noone Special] (Re: _Katz_) The etymology given above is lightly, but not very, corrupt – Katz **is** an acronym of _“Cohen Tzedek”_ – literally, “Priest of Justice.” There are many people who write the name Katz in Hebrew as כ"ץ (the quote-mark denotes abbreviations in (Modern) Hebrew), and quite a few people simply named _Cohen-Tzedek_ (spelled out in full) Of course, this \*\*could \*\*be a case of “reverse etymology” – people taking a folk-etymlogy and applying it backwards… I’ll try and look for a real cite later, at home. [/QUOTE] Thanks! Could very well be. As you are aware, such popular explanations as “port outward, starboard home” for “posh”, and “for unlawful carnal knowledge”, for you-know-what, do not reflect how words, including proper names, really evolve (yes, there are a few exceptions, like “laser” and “radar”). ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2007, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surnames-associated-with-a-particular-ancestry/416899/68 "2007-08-27T15:54:58Z")
[QUOTE=Randy Seltzer] I could be wrong but aren’t “profession” names English? Like Smith, Cooper, Taylor, etc. [/QUOTE] As Chronos points out, profession names are common in many cultures. Using your examples: SMITH German: _Schmidt_ French: _LaForge, LeFevre_ Spanish: _Herrera_ Italian: _Ferraro, Ferrrari_ Gaelic (anglicized): _Goff, Gough, McGough, McGowan_ Czech: _Kovac_ Hungarian: _Kovacs_ Polish: _Kowalski_ Russian: _Kuznetsov_ Arabic: _Haddad_ Punjabi: _Lohar_ COOPER German: _Kuper, Kupfer, Buttner, Schaffler_, perhaps ultimately _Keefer_ (from _Küfer_) and _Keebler_ (from _Kübler_). Dutch: _Kuiper_ Czech: _Bednar_ Polish: _Bednarik_ French: _Barillier_ (and IIRC, a _Charpentier_ could have been either a traditional carpenter or a cooper) Scandinavian: I believe _Boddicker_ derives from Danish _Bødker_ TAYLOR German: _Schneider_ (ultimately _Snider, Snyder_) Dutch: _Snijder_ (ultimately _Snider, Snyder_) French (?): I have often wondered if _Teller_ derives from French _teilleur_. Polish: _Krawiec, Krawczyk_ ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2007, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surnames-associated-with-a-particular-ancestry/416899/69 "2007-08-27T17:48:43Z")
[QUOTE=bordelond] German: _Schneider_ (ultimately _Snider, Snyder_) Dutch: _Snijder_ (ultimately _Snider, Snyder_) French (?): I have often wondered if _Teller_ derives from French _teilleur_. Polish: _Krawiec, Krawczyk_ [/QUOTE] Spanish: Sastre Cool list! ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2007, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surnames-associated-with-a-particular-ancestry/416899/70 "2007-08-27T18:10:42Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Socks] What are surnames associated with a certain ancestry? [/QUOTE] Just so we’re clear here, Captain Socks, _every_ family name tends to indicate a particular ethnic ancestry. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2007, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surnames-associated-with-a-particular-ancestry/416899/71 "2007-08-27T19:12:32Z")
[QUOTE=Chronos] Professsion names can be almost any nationality at all, depending on the language used for the profession. Thus, for instance, “Cooper” is English, but “Kuiper” is (I think) Dutch. See also the German “Schmidt” (Smith), and probably a lot of other examples I’m not lingual enough to know. [/QUOTE] Doesn’t “Stein” = “Smith”, too? Goldstein, Silverstein … ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2007, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surnames-associated-with-a-particular-ancestry/416899/72 "2007-08-27T19:21:21Z")
[QUOTE=suranyi] Not all: Names ending in -nyi are usually Hungarian. [/QUOTE] Well, that’s why I said “pretty much” all. 🙂 > [@Captain Socks](#): > > ``` > The five main Jewish suffixes are -baum, -witz, -stein, -man, and -berg, right? > > ``` Well, those are just German endings (except for -witz), meaning “tree”, “stone”, “man” and “mountain”, respectively. Jews from different parts of the world will have different types of names, so I don’t see how those could be called “main”. It’s just that many Jews in the US come from German or Yiddish speaking cultures. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2007, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surnames-associated-with-a-particular-ancestry/416899/73 "2007-08-27T19:40:45Z")
[QUOTE=Phase42] Doesn’t “Stein” = “Smith”, too? Goldstein, Silverstein … [/QUOTE] _Stein_ literally means “stone”. Don’t know about any idiomatic or regional uses of the word, past or present ( **Kellner** , are you around?). ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2007, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surnames-associated-with-a-particular-ancestry/416899/74 "2007-08-27T19:45:50Z")
[QUOTE=JKellyMap] Spanish: Sastre [/QUOTE] Is that an actual last name? If so, chalk it up. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Socks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a8b319/32.png) [@Captain\_Socks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Socks)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2007, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surnames-associated-with-a-particular-ancestry/416899/75 "2007-08-27T19:49:49Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Well, those are just German endings (except for -witz), meaning “tree”, “stone”, “man” and “mountain”, respectively. Jews from different parts of the world will have different types of names, so I don’t see how those could be called “main”. It’s just that many Jews in the US come from German or Yiddish speaking cultures. [/QUOTE] :smack: I forgot a word! Those are common suffixes among Ashkenazi Jews, right, Eastern European. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2007, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surnames-associated-with-a-particular-ancestry/416899/76 "2007-08-27T20:01:08Z")
[QUOTE=bordelond] Is that an actual last name? If so, chalk it up. [/QUOTE] Yes, two of my colleagues in Yucatan were brothers named Armando and Fernando Sastre. I don’t know how common the surname is. ---
**Author:** ![kellner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c2a13f/32.png) [@kellner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kellner)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2007, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surnames-associated-with-a-particular-ancestry/416899/77 "2007-08-27T20:23:00Z")
[QUOTE=bordelond] _Stein_ literally means “stone”. Don’t know about any idiomatic or regional uses of the word, past or present ( **Kellner** , are you around?). [/QUOTE] It’s often used in place names where you would probably use “rock” in English. These are sometimes the basis for surnames, including those of noble families who were usually named after their estate. For example “Frankenstein” is a rock associated with the tribe the Franks. This was the name of several castles and villages and at least one real-life noble family was named after one of the castles. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2007, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surnames-associated-with-a-particular-ancestry/416899/78 "2007-08-27T20:38:01Z")
[QUOTE=Noone Special] (Re: _Katz_) The etymology given above is lightly, but not very, corrupt – Katz **is** an acronym of _“Cohen Tzedek”_ – literally, “Priest of Justice.” There are many people who write the name Katz in Hebrew as כ"ץ (the quote-mark denotes abbreviations in (Modern) Hebrew), and quite a few people simply named _Cohen-Tzedek_ (spelled out in full) Of course, this \*\*could \*\*be a case of “reverse etymology” – people taking a folk-etymlogy and applying it backwards… I’ll try and look for a real cite later, at home. [/QUOTE] To elaborate on my previous answer – both \*\*JKellyMap \*\*and I are correct. The name Katz is a Jewish name meaning _Cohen Tzedek_; it is **also** a German name, meaning “cat.” [cite](http://surnames.behindthename.com/php/search.php?terms=katz&type=n&operator=or) ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2007, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surnames-associated-with-a-particular-ancestry/416899/79 "2007-08-27T20:40:42Z")
Interesting, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2007, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surnames-associated-with-a-particular-ancestry/416899/80 "2007-08-28T01:29:03Z")
Looking through student records every week brings slightly more "mc"s as "mac"s, but I can’t say its enough for statistical purposes. Are names in English derived from colours all from the period of time when the English decided that colonists in Ireland were turning too native and tried to do away with Irish names in exchange for bland meaningless ones? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surnames-associated-with-a-particular-ancestry/416899.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surnames-associated-with-a-particular-ancestry/416899.md?page=5)