# Surprise examples of racism in books (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 9, 2012, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-examples-of-racism-in-books-open-spoilers/615265 "2012-03-09T14:22:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-examples-of-racism-in-books-open-spoilers/615265/41 "2012-03-12T02:29:44Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > In the **Little House on the Prairie** book series, Ma Ingalls sure hated those indians. She surely did. A lot of white people in her time and place did, as well. I think that Pa Ingalls was rather an odd duck because he liked Indians, and even admired them. Of course, this didn’t stop him from trying to establish a homestead in their territory before it was legal. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-examples-of-racism-in-books-open-spoilers/615265/42 "2012-03-12T02:52:26Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Especially given that Giap was Vietnamese. The book was written in 1967. I just did a quick look, and can’t find any description of Giap as either little or Korean. He does describe the Vietnamese soldiers as little a few times. Which they would have been, compared to the French. And the general tone of the book, despite being written from the perspective of the French, is to my mind quite admiring of the cleverness, skill, tenacity and resourcefulness of the “little” Vietnamese soldiers. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-examples-of-racism-in-books-open-spoilers/615265/43 "2012-03-12T02:53:54Z")
> [@Renifer](#): > > _The Love Talker_ by Elizabeth Peters. A mystery/romance that has the heroine investigating a photo of fairies. At one point someone she’s talking to brings up that “fairies” is a slang term for homosexuals and she goes off on a rant about how appalling it is that the beautiful mythological concept is ruined by those disgusting people. (Can’t recall the exact words but it was clear she thought homosexual people were criminal abominations.) > And this is the heroine, someone that is supposed to be liked. > The book was written in the 1970s, and Elizabeth Peters is an author I really like. I’ve read other books by her and none of the others have vitriolic statements like this. > > /The statement pertained to sexuality, not racism, but it did slap me in the face when I came to that part. > / Also Mary Balogh’s I_rresisitible_ had the heroine suffering from a loss of self worth because her first husband turned out to be a homosexual. Horrors :0 I was, I guess not surprised, but… disappointed? by Robin Schone, whose smexcky romance novels I was quite enjoying, to realize they all had a homophobic bit in them. Like, all of them. Even when it wouldn’t have had a reason to be involved in the plot except that that’s the plot she came up with, like _The Lady’s Tutor_. So, okay, one book… and then I read the rest of her stuff, which should have been hot as hell for this former yaoi/slash fan, only it was full of disgust. It was like taking a bath in a lake with an oil slick on top and when you came up you were covered in it. I can, maybe every five years, forget it for _The Lady’s Tutor_, because that shit is _hot_. But I don’t respect myself for it. ---
**Author:** ![Renifer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/71c47a/32.png) [@Renifer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renifer)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-examples-of-racism-in-books-open-spoilers/615265/44 "2012-03-12T03:21:15Z")
In one Sherlock Holmes story (forget which one), Arthur Conan Doyle uses the Ku Klux Klan as a plot element and explains what the Ku Klux Klan is for the benefit of his British readers. Sad that people today don’t need that explanation; that that group had not been relegated to a 19th century anomaly but is still widely recognized today. ---
**Author:** ![MarcusF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@MarcusF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcusF)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-examples-of-racism-in-books-open-spoilers/615265/45 "2012-03-12T07:35:58Z")
> [@Renifer](#): > > In one Sherlock Holmes story (forget which one), Arthur Conan Doyle uses the Ku Klux Klan as a plot element and explains what the Ku Klux Klan is for the benefit of his British readers. Sad that people today don’t need that explanation; that that group had not been relegated to a 19th century anomaly but is still widely recognized today. _The Five Orange Pips_ ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-examples-of-racism-in-books-open-spoilers/615265/46 "2012-03-12T09:51:32Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Hemingway from A Farewell to Arms - Henry is coming to see Cat, who is dying in the hospital. > > She sees him and, in her bed, says “Here comes Othello from the wars” > > “Othello was a n\*\*\*\*r”" is the reply. > > Okay then. This surprised/offended you? You gotta be kidding me. Here’s an idea: let’s edit everything written in the past that may potentially offend someone in today’s world. “Othello was a Person of Color”. Yeah, that’s better. mmm ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-examples-of-racism-in-books-open-spoilers/615265/47 "2012-03-12T10:58:59Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > In the **Little House on the Prairie** book series, Ma Ingalls sure hated those indians. It couldnt possibly be because they had murdered some settlers. couldnt it? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-examples-of-racism-in-books-open-spoilers/615265/48 "2012-03-12T11:01:40Z")
This thread is pretty racist because it solely focuses on whites being racist against nonwhites; where are any examples of nonwhites being racist? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-examples-of-racism-in-books-open-spoilers/615265/49 "2012-03-12T11:51:57Z")
This is a very mild example and indicative of attitudes of the time, but I always found it a little jarring whenever one of John Buchan’s characters bestowed the highest level of praise he could think of upon another: “You’re a white man!” ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-examples-of-racism-in-books-open-spoilers/615265/50 "2012-03-12T11:58:23Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > This thread is pretty racist because it solely focuses on whites being racist against nonwhites; where are any examples of nonwhites being racist? Off-hand, I believe a number of Joseph Conrad’s characters were pretty darn dismissive of the stupid white men stuck on their islands. But that seemed to be more of an individual thing, and they showed nothign but respect to large groups of armed Europeans. But that is just a general impression I have retained many years after reading the books. (Edited to add: I am profoundly ignorant of Asian literature and cultures, and so would not recognize a slur against the big-noses or blue-eyed devils even if it were highlighted in the text.) ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-examples-of-racism-in-books-open-spoilers/615265/51 "2012-03-12T14:26:25Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > This thread is pretty racist because it solely focuses on whites being racist against nonwhites; where are any examples of nonwhites being racist? Not racist, but in E.R. Braithwaite’s autobiographic book **To Sir With Love** , set in the 1940’s. the black author, who encounters all sorts of racism from the Brits, and his white (!) girlfriend question the relationship between the two female teachers who teach the younger children, who live together, and who have no boyfriends. They think of the children and the negative effect it has on them. I wish I’d kept my first prtining copy of Roald Dahl’s **Charlie and the Chocolate Factory** , when the Oompa Loompas were black pygmies. Dahl changed them to white guys in later editions in the name of non-racism! ---
**Author:** ![MarcusF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@MarcusF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcusF)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-examples-of-racism-in-books-open-spoilers/615265/52 "2012-03-12T15:35:45Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Off-hand, I believe a number of Joseph Conrad’s characters were pretty darn dismissive of the stupid white men stuck on their islands. But that seemed to be more of an individual thing, and they showed nothign but respect to large groups of armed Europeans. > > But that is just a general impression I have retained many years after reading the books. > > (Edited to add: I am profoundly ignorant of Asian literature and cultures, and so would not recognize a slur against the big-noses or blue-eyed devils even if it were highlighted in the text.) Well, there is James Clavell’s Asian Saga (Tai Pan, Shogun, etc). There are an awful lot of racist comments aimed at the Europeans by the Chinese and Japanese characters but as these are written by a white guy maybe this is an example of racism by the author 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-examples-of-racism-in-books-open-spoilers/615265/53 "2012-03-19T20:52:46Z")
I picked up some James Bond books a while back and noticed a smattering of stereotypes here and there. None more particular than the difference noted between Turkish people and gypsies. While today there’s plenty of prejudice against gypsies in Europe, Ian Fleming didn’t seem to mind them. Not so much the Turkish people Bond comes across though in From Russia With Love. A description of a group of people in a market place are described as, IIRC, “recently come down from the hills” and people who have one eye on the coin in your hand, another reaching around their back for a knife :dubious: I think I read somewhere it was something he had written after witnessing a disturbance in Turkey, possibly an expulsion of ethnic Greeks. Oh, and the thread’s been given a shout over at [i09](http://io9.com/5894639/what-do-you-do-when-you-find-weird-racism-in-old-science-fiction-books). ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-examples-of-racism-in-books-open-spoilers/615265/54 "2012-03-19T21:13:31Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > That’s certainly true for fictional characters or real people back in the day when “nigger” was so commonly used that many non-black people just didn’t notice its offensiveness. Likewise, using colloquial terms that happened to be originally derived from “nigger”, like “niggerhead” for a particular rock formation or “niggertoe” for a particular kind of nut, wouldn’t necessarily imply racism on the part of somebody in those days. > > Nowadays, though, anybody who called their dog or cat “Nigger” would have absolutely no excuse for not understanding how offensive it is, and it sure as hell **would** say something about the user’s “actual racial attitudes”. > > Nonsense. The use of “nigger” by a non-black person nowadays is pretty much universally regarded as highly offensive, and there is no reason except “actual racism” for anyone to use it. Reminds me of an example of “surprising non-racism”: in Rider Haggard’s adventure _King Solomon’s Mines_, set in Africa and written in 1885, the narrator in the prologue states that he does not like the casual use of the word “nigger”, because he is of the opinion that a Black man can be as much a gentleman as a White man. > [@](#): > > What is a gentleman? I don’t quite know, and yet I have had to do with niggers—no, I will scratch out that word “niggers,” for I do not like it. I’ve known natives who are, and so you will say, Harry, my boy, before you have done with this tale, and I have known mean whites with lots of money and fresh out from home, too, who are not. This is interesting to me as it indicates that in 1885 it was fully possible for a person to recognize in a popular adventure novel that the term was offensive (“no, I will scratch out that word “niggers,” for I do not like it”) and to do so because of an acknowledged equality (“I’ve known natives who are [gentlemen], and so you will say, Harry, my boy, before you have done with this tale, and I have known mean whites with lots of money and fresh out from home, too, who are not [gentlemen]”) ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2012, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-examples-of-racism-in-books-open-spoilers/615265/55 "2012-03-19T21:24:12Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > This surprised/offended you? You gotta be kidding me. > > Here’s an idea: let’s edit everything written in the past that may potentially offend someone in today’s world. > > “Othello was a Person of Color”. > > Yeah, that’s better. > mmm Sorry if you feel kidded. I read it and was put off. It was a toss-off line meant to cheer up his dying girl, but it still used the word n\*\*\*\*\*, and used it the way it was intended, as a demeaning, dismissive way to refer to a black person. Actually, I’m kinda surprised you picked this one out to be surprised about and find inoffensive or no big deal… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-examples-of-racism-in-books-open-spoilers/615265/56 "2012-03-20T08:41:44Z")
Hello, [io9 readers](http://io9.com/5894639/what-do-you-do-when-you-find-weird-racism-in-old-science-fiction-books)… ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-examples-of-racism-in-books-open-spoilers/615265/57 "2012-03-20T08:59:38Z")
> [@Pushkin](#): > > I picked up some James Bond books a while back and noticed a smattering of stereotypes here and there. I just finished _Live and Let Die_ which features Bond vs. a network of African American blue collar workers who are all controlled by a criminal mastermind using their superstitious fear of vodoo (and is in turn controlled by the Communists, natch). At one point Bond and Felix go to Harlem to observe the AA population and make references to being on Safari. As the criminal network has a presence almost everywhere, the book describes almost every black person Bond comes across as sinister and a possible criminal out to murder Bond and help the commies in their schemes. On the other hand, Fleming seemed aware he was coming across as racist and has his characters make several speeches talking about how black people were coming up in the world and it was only natural they’d produce great criminals along with great scientists, artists, etc. So I guess 1954 was still early enough that you could get away with racism as a major plot element, but late enough that you felt bad about it. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-examples-of-racism-in-books-open-spoilers/615265/58 "2012-03-20T09:15:07Z")
> [@charmstr](#): > > Hell, Agatha Christie wrote a book called Ten Little Niggers. Which happens to be the title of a song (the original version was apparently called “The Little Indians”), and her novel’s story is similar to the song. The novel is now sold under a different title, but one which still references the song (“And then there were none”). What’s next, PETA complaining about the expression “the number of the beast”? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-examples-of-racism-in-books-open-spoilers/615265/59 "2012-03-20T12:04:45Z")
> [@Pushkin](#): > > I picked up some James Bond books a while back and noticed a smattering of stereotypes here and there. None more particular than the difference noted between Turkish people and gypsies. > > While today there’s plenty of prejudice against gypsies in Europe, Ian Fleming didn’t seem to mind them. Not so much the Turkish people Bond comes across though in From Russia With Love. A description of a group of people in a market place are described as, IIRC, “recently come down from the hills” and people who have one eye on the coin in your hand, another reaching around their back for a knife :dubious: > > I think I read somewhere it was something he had written after witnessing a disturbance in Turkey, possibly an expulsion of ethnic Greeks. > > Oh, and the thread’s been given a shout over at [i09](http://io9.com/5894639/what-do-you-do-when-you-find-weird-racism-in-old-science-fiction-books). Simon Winder, in _The Man who Saved Britain_ ( [Amazon.com: The Man Who Saved Britain: A Personal Journey into the Disturbing World of James Bond: 9780312426668: Winder, Simon: Books](http://www.amazon.com/Man-Who-Saved-Britain-Disturbing/dp/0312426666) ) takes Fleming to task for his racism. He sees Bond as the British response to losing its superpower status and its colonies, with Bond fighting for Imperliasm against trhose “other” races. Alan Moore seems to feel much the same way. He’s not fond of Bond to begin with (see the into he wrote to Frank Miller’s _The Dark Knight Returns_, or his own _League of Extraordinary Gentlemen: The Black Dossier_), but the fictional British hero on the TV in his _V for Vendetta_ seems based in part on Bond, and that guy is always shown fighting the Evil Non-Brits. There’s more than a little racism in the Bond books – the “Chigros”, all the blacks in _Live and Let Die_, the sinister orientals in _Dr. No_. There’s condescension in _The Man with the Golden Gun_ 9and one of the weirdest things is the idea of Rastafarian gangs in that book. It certainly conflicts with the modern stereotype of laid-back ganja-smoking rastasfarians) ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2012, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-examples-of-racism-in-books-open-spoilers/615265/60 "2012-03-20T12:40:48Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Which happens to be the title of a song (the original version was apparently called “The Little Indians”) Nitpick - _Ten_ Little Indians. (Often ‘soldier boys’, or some other substitution, these days.) Which was the title of the novel for a period after someone realized Ten Little Niggers sounded iffy, and before it was decided Ten Little Indians wasn’t a whole lot better. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-examples-of-racism-in-books-open-spoilers/615265.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-examples-of-racism-in-books-open-spoilers/615265.md?page=4)