# Surprise! The South's reputation hijacked by its own people...again! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 7, 2001, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924 "2001-11-07T02:17:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![thinksnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thinksnow/32/2849_2.png) [@thinksnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thinksnow)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2001, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924/41 "2001-11-07T20:16:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*Dewey Cheatem Undhow \*\* > But people who get upset over the use of the word “frat” are just being ridiculous. They are taking themselves, and the Greek system, far too seriously. No matter how you spin it, the word just isn’t derogatory. It’s an abbreviated form of fraternity, used for convenience. No disrespect is paid to the fraternity system by referring to your fraternity as a “frat.” If you look at what I was [responding to](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=1796106#post1796106), the context the “convenient abbreviation” was used in, it most certainly was meant as a disrespectful slam on Fraternity members. Granted, there was [an attempt](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=1798150#post1798150) to clarify and differentiate, but even that still used the term to reference offending assholes. Repeatedly, in this thread if you’ve never seen it anywhere else, the phrase “frat boy” is used to describe asshole who commit unseemly acts upon others or are just plain stupid. For your edification, the uses of the phrase “frat boy” or word “frat” prior to my comments: > [@](#): > > from the OP > …some fucking cretinous frat boys from an all-white fraternity… > [@](#): > > **[missdavis102](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=1796191#post1796191)** > Even dumb frat boys should know a stunt like that… > [@](#): > > **[matt\_mcl](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=1796383#post1796383)** > Remember that frat parade a few years ago that had a float depicting Matt Shepard in effigy… > [@](#): > > **[MGibson](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=1796699#post1796699)** > Point is those frat boys didn’t make their state look bad. They made themselves look bad and perhaps their school. Every state has racist assholes. > [@](#): > > **[elelle](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=1796849#post1796849)** > For all the yahoos like the Auburn … frat boyz Yeah, guess I’m misunderstanding it. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2001, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924/42 "2001-11-07T20:32:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by iampunha \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Ogre \* > > _ **They fucking dressed up some anencephalic jerkoff in blackface and pretended to hang him.** _ > > I realize your anger, I truly do. But could we substitute something in here for anencephalic? Like maybe . . . peckerhead son of a syphillitic Babylonian sewer whore? > > [sub]'Cuz I have a cousin who died because he was anencephalic.[/sub] \*\* Sure, substitute however you like. Sorry about your cousin. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2001, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924/43 "2001-11-07T20:34:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MGibson \* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by DPWhite \* > > The Confederate Battle Flag is a bit of Souther Heritage: a Heritage of racism, slavery, oppression and treason. But let’s keep our condemnation only to those who wave it or support it as a secret handshake of their bigotry, kinda like how Chief Justice Rhenquist gets together with groups and sings Dixie. > > How many people from the south were convicted of treason after the Civil War? The Confederates weren’t convicted of treason mainly because Congress passed a general amnesty. It wasn’t that they hadn’t committed treason–“waging war against the United States”–it was that it was judged inexpedient and not in the best interests of the country to send them all up against the wall. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2001, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924/44 "2001-11-07T20:41:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ogre \* > As it turns out, we don’t need a Yankee to make us look bad…we’re capable of doing it [all by ourselves](http://www.tolerance.org/news/article_hate.jsp?id=319). And folks say Southern California is weird??? ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2001, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924/45 "2001-11-07T20:47:25Z")
**thinksnow** , I don’t really get your point. In this thread, the term is used in a factually accurate sense. The people that dressed up in blackface to attend the party were members of two fraternities. They are “frat boys”…used as an abbreviation for “member of a fraternity.” If we were to use the term “frat boy” to describe any person who fits the typical negative stereotype, regardless of whether they are in a fraternity, or whether we know they’re in a fraternity, then you’d have a point. These guys are unquestionably, undeniably fraternity members. Thus, they are “frat boys,” or “frat guys,” or whatever. I personally meant no insult by the specific term. I meant insult through my disgust with their actions, and the system of continuing political machination and which they represent here in the South, AKA “the Good Ol’ Boy Network.” ---
**Author:** ![mouthbreather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a698b9/32.png) [@mouthbreather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mouthbreather)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2001, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924/46 "2001-11-07T20:57:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lao Tsu \* > I guess other minority groups of people who get upset by their lables are “just taking themselves too seriously.” Would you care to shed some light on the likeness between frat boys and minority groups? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2001, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924/47 "2001-11-07T21:03:28Z")
Oh good God! Now frat boys are an oppressed minority? Boo hoo. You choose to join a frat. You do not choose your skin color. See the difference? Frat. Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2001, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924/48 "2001-11-07T21:26:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by thinksnow \* > If you look at what I was [responding to](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=1796106#post1796106), the context the “convenient abbreviation” was used in, it most certainly was meant as a disrespectful slam on Fraternity members. Granted, there was [an attempt](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=1798150#post1798150) to clarify and differentiate, but even that still used the term to reference offending assholes. Repeatedly, in this thread if you’ve never seen it anywhere else, the phrase “frat boy” is used to describe asshole who commit unseemly acts upon others or are just plain stupid. > > For your edification, the uses of the phrase “frat boy” or word “frat” prior to my comments: > [snip quotations] > Yeah, guess I’m misunderstanding it. \*\* Yeah, you are. As **Ogre** pointed out, the use of the phrase is accurate here: these cretins, like or not, are in fact fraternity members. The offensiveness of the sentences you quote stems not from the use of the word “frat” but rather from the surrounding language. Consider each of your examples, re-worded to use the full word “fraternity”: …some fucking cretinous **fraternity** boys from an all-white fraternity Even dumb **fraternity** boys should know a stunt like that… Remember that **fraternity** parade a few years ago that had a float depicting Matt Shepard in effigy… Point is those **fraternity** boys didn’t make their state look bad. They made themselves look bad and perhaps their school. Every state has racist assholes. For all the yahoos like the Auburn … **fraternity** boyz I would postulate that it isn’t the term “frat” that’s offensive, but the surrounding language. “Frat” simply isn’t a derogatory term in the above sentences. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2001, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924/49 "2001-11-07T21:33:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spoke- \* > \*\* > Frat. > > Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat Frat \*\* :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2001, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924/50 "2001-11-07T21:44:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lao Tsu \* > **Rock on, thinksnow. I am constantly amazed at how many educated and erudite people who would never use any other pejoratives will gleefully whip out “frat boy”. Dewey, it’s not “just being ridiculous”, most people use the term to belittle something they don’t understand. I guess other minority groups of people who get upset by their lables are "just taking themselves too seriously."** “Most people” use “frat” as a convenient shorthand for fraternity. Period. “Frat boy” is no more offensive than “fraternity boy.” The objection to “frat boy” is not to the use of the term “frat,” but to the description of someone who is of legal age as a “boy.” (And I’ll note that even “frat boy” is not necessarily pejorative: I have a pair of Redwing boots from college, which was kind of the style for fraternity guys. I still call them my “frat boy booots.”) And the lame attempt at moral equivelance here is just too ridiculous for words. If you really think being called a “frat boy” is the same as using racial slurs, you really need to pick up the clue phone. ---
**Author:** ![thinksnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thinksnow/32/2849_2.png) [@thinksnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thinksnow)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2001, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924/51 "2001-11-07T21:49:08Z")
**Ogre** , I appreciate your position and while I certainly agree that these guys are/were assholes, my point is the term/phrase “frat boy” is derogatory. It’s not used here as an abbreviation. It’s used as an encompassing slam on the entire Greek system. [li]Criminals that beat their wives down South = assholes [sym]¹[/sym] Rednecks.[/li][li]Criminals that happen to be homosexual = assholes [sym]¹[/sym] Fags.[/li][li]Criminals that happen to be politicians = assholes [sym]¹[/sym] Damn (Republicans/Democrats/Libertarians/Liberal/Conservatives.)[/li][li]Criminals that happen to be of a certain religion = assholes [sym]¹[/sym] Damn Christians/Jews/Muslims/Buddhists.[/li][li]Criminals that happen to be in a Fraternity = assholes [sym]¹[/sym] Frat boys.[/li] The argument that these guys _are_ assholes and therefor fit the slang definition of “frat boy” sucks because you are then turning around and saying that the word “frat” is just a shortening of the word Fraternity. Yes, they were in a Fraternity. Yes they are criminals. Yes, they are assholes. No, they are not a member of a minority group. 😃 Yes, they sky-line an oft-maligned group once again publicly in an incredibly tasteless and ignorant manner. I object to the word “frat” as I object to any other disparaging and offensive term that is applied to people that happen to be a member of one group or another or even those of a certain race. In this thread, if nowhere else ( :rolleyes: ), when someone says “frat” or “frat boys,” _the understanding is that the OP is speaking about some assholes. Consistently and repeatedly, the word was used to reference assholes_ whose Fraternity had the misfortune of having made them members. It is used as an invective and is understood as such. One could argue that, in such a manner, you used it appropriately, but I would argue that there is no appropriate use of the word as there is no appropriate use for the words/phrases listed above. **spoke-** , what an astonishing addition to the thread. I await your next post from the edge of my seat, praying it holds the same depth of meaning, raw clarity and amazing subtle nuance. I beg of you, don’t keep me waiting long. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2001, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924/52 "2001-11-07T21:56:39Z")
After careful consideration I think I have to agree. Further using the term boys is clearly disrespectful. Fraternity Members is obviously better. Or Men. Or even better, Honary Members of Fraternal Organizations Frequently Making Pointless Use of Greek Letters. (bloody hell, now I knew there was a reason I circular filed those CVs which make a big deal out of their bloody frat affil.) ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2001, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924/53 "2001-11-07T21:57:42Z")
I was in a Fraternity, and personally, the trem “frat” dosen’t bother me, but isn’t a pejorative in the ears of the beholder? If I was to call a black person a nigger, I’m sure it would be taken negatively, and rightly so, yet members of the black community use the exact same term amongst themselves with no insult intended or taken. Thinksnow has indicated that he finds the term frat offensive. Even though I don’t, I won’t spend time trying to change his mind, I just won’t use that term to thinksnow. Isn’t that simple? ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2001, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924/54 "2001-11-07T22:10:13Z")
So, **thinksnow** , in a manner of speaking, you are expressing a similar feeling as I did in the OP…namely that a small group of idiots has made a group to which you belong, in this case, fraternity members, look bad. In my case, it was obviously “the South” or “Southerners.” I can respect that, and I see your point about the connotations of the term “frat boy” being pejorative for the purposes of this thread. However, no such insult via the use of the term was intended in the OP, even in the embittered final portion. I can not speak for everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2001, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924/55 "2001-11-07T22:14:04Z")
> [@](#): > > I object to the word “frat” as I object to any other disparaging and offensive term that is applied to people that happen to be a member of one group or another or even those of a certain race. In this thread, if nowhere else ( ), when someone says “frat” or “frat boys,” the understanding is that the OP is speaking about some assholes. Um, no. This is apparently _your_ understanding, but I submit that it is not a general understanding. (Much as I hate to disagree with a guy who looks so smashing in a kilt.) I have never heard that “frat” or “frat boy” is derogatory, and I’ve dated my share of frat boys. To compare it to “cunt” in terms of being a grievous insult is IMO ridiculous. Now that I understand that _you_ are offended by it, I will try not to use it. But your offense doesn’t mean that the term is offensive to most, or that it was meant offensively as used in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2001, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924/56 "2001-11-07T22:23:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weirddave \* > \*\*I was in a Fraternity, and personally, the trem “frat” dosen’t bother me, but isn’t a pejorative in the ears of the beholder? If I was to call a black person a nigger, I’m sure it would be taken negatively, and rightly so, yet members of the black community use the exact same term amongst themselves with no insult intended or taken. Thinksnow has indicated that he finds the term frat offensive. Even though I don’t, I won’t spend time trying to change his mind, I just won’t use that term to thinksnow. Isn’t that simple? \*\* The problem with that approach is that you inevitably end up bowing to the most thin-skinned person out there. Recall the DC official who faced a firestorm of criticism for his use of the term “niggardly” (which, of course, has nothing to do with the similar-sounding racial epithet). ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2001, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924/57 "2001-11-07T22:31:12Z")
No, I disagree. All I’m saying is that when discussing fraternitys with my friend thingksnow, I won’t refer to them as frats. I’m not saying that I won’t use the term frat in general because someone might be offended, or bow before stupidity ( as in the example cited above ) or anything else of the kind, just that when having a discussion on a specific issue with a specific person, I won’t knowingly use a hot button term. ---
**Author:** ![thinksnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thinksnow/32/2849_2.png) [@thinksnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thinksnow)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924/58 "2001-11-08T00:30:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*Dewey Cheatem Undhow \*\* > The problem with that approach is that you inevitably end up bowing to the most thin-skinned person out there. I assure you I’m not thin-skinned, this just happens to be a pet-peeve of mine. **Jodi** , I appreciate your comments. Yours, too, **Ogre**. Like I said, pet-peeve. ---
**Author:** ![Speleophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@Speleophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speleophile)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924/59 "2001-11-08T01:04:26Z")
> [@](#): > > Criminals that beat their wives down South = assholes =/= Rednecks. **Redneck DOES equal Asshole** At least anytime I use it, it does, and emphatically so. Being over the age of 40, I clearly remember “redneck” being universially regarded as very insulting, until it became part of the southern _heritage_ to be one. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924/60 "2001-11-08T01:36:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Speleophile \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > Criminals that beat their wives down South = assholes =/= Rednecks. > > **Redneck DOES equal Asshole** > > At least anytime I use it, it does, and emphatically so. > > Being over the age of 40, I clearly remember “redneck” being universially regarded as very insulting, until it became part of the southern _heritage_ to be one. \*\* Errr…well, the language changes. My parents are dyed-in-the-wool Southerners, each over 70 years old, and they don’t think “redneck” is an insult at all. It is, to them, a person who works hard for a living, usually outdoors, giving them a red, sunburned neck. Funny thing, language. Just when you think you have it nailed down, **BAM**! It changes on you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924.md?page=4)