# Surprise! The South's reputation hijacked by its own people...again! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 7, 2001, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924 "2001-11-07T02:17:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924/61 "2001-11-08T02:01:22Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **thinksnow** _ > > I am irked that, once again, people are using a high-profile event to paint an entire system with the same wide, biased and prejudiced brush. I’m irritated that the people that do this slander and defame the entire system for the actions of a few who are, generally speaking, no different than any other representative sample of the whole collegiate community. Good Lord - somehow, everyone’s repressed. 😃 Hey, I’ll abide - if I want people to stop using “gay” as a derogatory slur, I’m more than happy to use “fraternity.” I will say, though, **thinksnow** , that in the context of the OP, we have to talk about them being members of a fraternity, for it is the fraternity chapter (or its reputation) that will suffer going forward (I read a news account in the paper today that all the parties involved have been expelled, but the chapters will remain intact, IIRC). If a gay guy harasses a straight guy in a gay bar, then I would call that guy an ignorant faggot without qualms; similarly, you have to admit that these guys using their fraternity house as a cover for their heinous activities does make them eligible for derogatory slurs, and I think, in their individual cases, they have exemplified “frat boys” as being everything you would never want a fraternity member to be (and as most people realize they aren’t). Esprix ---
**Author:** ![thinksnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thinksnow/32/2849_2.png) [@thinksnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thinksnow)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924/62 "2001-11-08T02:19:35Z")
Fair enough, **Esprix**. I was thinking along the same lines, that if it had been a story involving a homosexual and someone had instead said “…and these stupid fags…” (and yes, I realize once again that sexual orientation is not a choice, as is the decision to join (or start) a Fraternity) there would likely have been a bit more backlash. Anyhoo, I’ve sort of spun-out, I think everyone understands my point and I appreciate the input and discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924/63 "2001-11-08T02:48:02Z")
I’m a southerner, as some of you know I’m a rural Virginian and proud of it. (Also, I’m astonished that Mark Warner won. I wouldn’t have bet on that in 10 years.) It deeply shames me when I see other southerners acting this way. I can see, at times, the need for some folks out here to wave the battle flag and call it ‘heritage’. I don’t agree with it, mind, but I see the reasoning behind it. But here’s what’s eating me today. I take a road, every damn day of my life, called the Dulles Access Road. Some of you will be familiar with it. Driving home on Monday I find myself behind some little toy car like a Yugo or a Civic or some such thing and I spot a bumper sticker on it. It had the image of the Capitol Building on it. The Capitol Building with the Confederate battle flag flying over it. And next to that was a motto: “I Have A Dream” Honestly, my brethren’s actions reflects upon me. As stated, I am deeply ashamed to be classed in the same cohort as this sort of person. Really, I’m generally too polite to speak of white trash…but I’m familiar with the concept. ---
**Author:** ![Tenebras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@Tenebras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tenebras)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924/64 "2001-11-08T03:12:40Z")
Ok, does anybody else have a problem with the original pair of inequalities? They seem to set up the relation: frat is to fraternity as cunt is to country What the hell is the relation? When was the last time you heard somebody say “Man, I sure am glad to be back in my home cunt, no more having to deal with foreigners who don’t speak English for me.”? Or how about “I’ve never been outside the cunt. Never thought about leaving it, not even for vacation. I was born here and by gum I’ll die here too!” There are more, but it seems silly to continue. The point is, it’s a false analagy. And before somebody says “exactly! See, nobody would ever replace country with cunt, because it’s a derogatory term” I shall head them off at the pass by pointing out that frat, if it has derogatory meanings, aquires them from its association with fraternities. Cunt, which does have derogatory meanings, does not in any way relate to meanings which would be associated with country. Jesus. 🙂 Tenebras ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924/65 "2001-11-08T03:53:04Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **thinksnow** _ > > I was thinking along the same lines, that if it had been a story involving a homosexual and someone had instead said “…and these stupid fags…” (and yes, I realize once again that sexual orientation is not a choice, as is the decision to join (or start) a Fraternity) there would likely have been a bit more backlash. Not from me. If a bunch of queers had done this, and being queer was integral to the story (say they went out “breeder bashing” or something), then yeah, they’re a bunch of stupid fags. I have no problem calling people derogatory names if they so clearly deserve them. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Road\_Rash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a8b319/32.png) [@Road\_Rash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Road_Rash)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924/66 "2001-11-08T04:29:01Z")
When I first saw the picture, I laughed my ass off. It’s totally fucked up, but so outrageous. Here’s a theme for the frat boys! Gay night. They could dress up totally steriotypical. Such as wearing daisy dukes, or cowboy boots with tank tops, dancer’s bikinis, ect. They can then play S&M games with the pledges, otherwise known as hazing. Then post the pics on the web. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924/67 "2001-11-08T04:46:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tenebras \* > \*\* > When was the last time you heard somebody say “Man, I sure am glad to be back in my home cunt, no more having to deal with foreigners who don’t speak English for me.”? > \*\* I did, last time I had sex… [sub]Oh, wait, I missed the point…😉 😛 [/sub] ---
**Author:** ![thinksnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thinksnow/32/2849_2.png) [@thinksnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thinksnow)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924/68 "2001-11-08T05:10:56Z")
**Dave** , I owe you a beer for that, thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Bossk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@Bossk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bossk)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924/69 "2001-11-08T07:23:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by thinksnow \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > **Bossk** > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > Originally posted by \*\*racinchikki \*\* > > > They’re frat boys. I’m sure they were drunk. Doesn’t make it that much less heinous, though. > > > > Yeah, don’t let a few rotten apples sully the noble traditions that _are_ Mile High clubs, beer bongs, ookie cookie, Ugliest Date contests and _Animal House_. > > > > That would be silly. > > Listen asshole, every fraternity with a national charter has _at least_ two philanthropies that they contribute time and money to over the course of a year. When was the last time you donated time or money to **Multiple Sclerosis** or **Habitat for Humanity**? Further, many of them have academic scholarships for their outstanding members and recognize athletic achievements. > > \*\* Oh, so THAT’S why our best and brightest are joining frats. The _charity_ angle. What beer game were you losing when you wrote that? ---
**Author:** ![Big\_Iron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Big\_Iron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Big_Iron)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924/70 "2001-11-08T09:17:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by thinksnow \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*\*Dewey Cheatem Undhow \*\* > > Look, “country” is a two-syllable word; “fraternity” is a four-syllable word. It’s a lot more efficient to replace “fraternity” with “frat” in everyday conversation… > > Yeah, well when that word is used as a derogatory slang by Greek system bashes, choosing not to for-shorten the word was a matter of respect/pride. > > No, Fraternity (and this includes Sororities, as most of them are, technically “Fraternities”) life is not sacred or all-encompassing, but it can be the base of some very strong friendships, life-long ones that share a common core. For that reason, and for the fact that I am the first Re-Founding Father of the Ohio State Chapter and therefor put a helluva lot more effort into the House than probably any normal member of the Greek system, I dislike the word “frat,” it’s use as a derogatory slur and it’s intended defamation of the system as a whole. > > You don’t like the “mantra,” fine, but realize that when people use the word “frat,” they are maligning an institution that, while occasionally sky-lined for the actions of a few stupid members, does a lot of good for the community and for it’s members. \*\* Oh, sheesh, calm down – I usually prefer the term “fraternity” to “frat” as well, but it’s inane to pretend that it’s some genuine calumny in any sane sense. It’s just a freakin’ abbreviation, like a zillion others, and I agree that the “you wouldn’t call your country a cunt” line is moronic. And fuck National … and Dean Mamolla. Pope Bob Delta Chi, Union Chapter, 1981 ---
**Author:** ![Big\_Iron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Big\_Iron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Big_Iron)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924/71 "2001-11-08T09:26:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MGibson \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by DPWhite \* > > \*\*The Confederate Battle Flag is a bit of Souther Heritage: a Heritage of racism, slavery, oppression and treason. But let’s keep our condemnation only to those who wave it or support it as a secret handshake of their bigotry, kinda like how Chief Justice Rhenquist gets together with groups and sings Dixie. \*\* > > How many people from the south were convicted of treason after the Civil War? > > Marc \*\* None, because of reasonable political considerations. Legally, thousands upon thousands of southerners were guilty of it. Kind of analagous to the maxim, “owe a little money and you’re a debtor, owe a lot and you’re a partner.” ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924/72 "2001-11-08T11:57:38Z")
Count me in as another one who finds the “fraternity/country” phrase more than a little irritating – possibly more irritating than **thinksnow** finds the word “frat” (and why is it that no one ever refers to sororities as “sores”?). As previously indicated, it’s not like using the full word “fraternity” in otherwise unaltered contexts will make the least bit of difference in the perception of the listeners/readers. However, in deference to finer sensibilities, I suggest that henceforth all “frat boys” be referred to as “Members of Fraternal Organizations”. We can call them **MoFOs** for short. 😃 jr8 Phi Mu Alpha, AZ chapter ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924/73 "2001-11-08T13:34:30Z")
Well, you can’t say I didn’t **try**. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924/74 "2001-11-08T14:52:24Z")
How about putting the frat/cunt hijack to bed, and let’s talk about the morons who did this? Here’s an update on the situation: [http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/1news/alabama/110801\_frat.html](http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/1news/alabama/110801_frat.html) Delta Sigma Phi has expelled two of its members, the guy wearing the KKK hood, and the guy in blackface with a noose around his neck. Four more have been suspended. Beta Theta Pi has not taken any disciplinary action yet against its members (the ones dressed as members of the black fraternity.) As far as I know, there has been no mention of the possibility of suspending or revoking either of the fraternities’ charters. Being unacquainted wit the inner workings of fraternities, someone tell me, is it normal that they be totally segregated by race? Or is this further proof that my goddamn beloved home state is still living in the fucking 19th century? ---
**Author:** ![thinksnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thinksnow/32/2849_2.png) [@thinksnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thinksnow)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924/75 "2001-11-08T15:08:47Z")
Probably depends upon the school or the chapter. I can only really tell you about Fraternities/Sororities at Ohio State, and AFAICT, there was a good deal of integration. To give you a for instance: my House had, upon re-founding-[li]2 blacks (persons of color?)[_]2 Filipinos [_]A Thai [_] An Indian (Asian-Indian) [_] A Chinese-American 27 Caucasians.[/li] One of the black Brothers (Fraternity Brother, not “brotha”) was elected IFC President a few years after we re-founded, if that counts for racial equity at all. When I visited other Chapters (UofM, Purdue, UCLA,) I noticed a fair bit of integration, so I feel comfortable stating that, at least for [sym]QX[/sym], there isn’t any strong (or weak, FTM) segregation. **HOWEVER** , there are still completely black and completely Hispanic Fraternal organizations. IIRC, there is even an entirely separate IFC for the blacks. I honestly don’t know if this is something they started when they weren’t able to join “normal” Fraternities way back when, or what, but it remains today and therefor, there _is_ some degree of segregation. I liken this to the all-black dorms some colleges still have, it seems quite counter to progress. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924/76 "2001-11-08T15:12:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ogre \* > \*\*Being unacquainted wit the inner workings of fraternities, someone tell me, is it normal that they be totally segregated by race? Or is this further proof that my goddamn beloved home state is still living in the fucking 19th century? \*\* No, no, it happens everywhere. Which is not to say that all fraternities are uniracial, or even most of them, but there are certain factors at play here. Firstly, there is the basic cliquish nature of fraternities – people tend to gravitate towards groups of like people. There is also (I’m told) a lot of pressure brought to bear by black fraternies/sororities on black students going through the rush process; one hears stories of everything from accusations of being “traitors to their race” if they consider joining a non-all-black fraternity, to physical abuse. When you’re looking for a peer group to be a part of, social pressure plays an enormous role. I don’t know to what extent the traditionally all-white fraternities/sororities discriminate against racial minorities, although I’m sure most or all of them having policies against it at the national level. Naturally it still goes on to varying degrees, depending on the individual chapters. I’m sure that given a bit of time and research, I could dig up some cites for you, but then again, so could you. 😉 My own fraternity had a racial mix that was probably pretty close to that of the overall college population, percentage-wise, but then we were a professional music fraternity (albeit an extremely social one). All we cared about was whether you had the chops, and that you weren’t a complete dickhead. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924/77 "2001-11-08T15:59:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by thinksnow \* > \*\*spoke-, what an astonishing addition to the thread. I await your next post from the edge of my seat, praying it holds the same depth of meaning, raw clarity and amazing subtle nuance. I beg of you, don’t keep me waiting long. \*\* **thinksnow** , if want to debate seriously (snicker) the oppression of frat boys, please open a thread in GD. But since this is a Pit thread, well, fuck off. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924/78 "2001-11-08T16:06:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weirddave \* > \*\*I was in a Fraternity, and personally, the trem “frat” dosen’t bother me, but isn’t a pejorative in the ears of the beholder? If I was to call a black person a nigger, I’m sure it would be taken negatively, and rightly so, yet members of the black community use the exact same term amongst themselves with no insult intended or taken. Thinksnow has indicated that he finds the term frat offensive. Even though I don’t, I won’t spend time trying to change his mind, I just won’t use that term to thinksnow. Isn’t that simple? \*\* I have decided that I am offended by the word “offensive.” Please do not use the word “offensive” around me because it is, well, erm, uh, _irritating_. **Weirddave** there are reasonable grounds for taking offense, and then there are unreasonable grounds for taking offense. I for one will not kowtow to someone determined to be offended by something so innocuous as the abbreviation “frat.” ---
**Author:** ![thinksnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thinksnow/32/2849_2.png) [@thinksnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thinksnow)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924/79 "2001-11-08T16:10:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*spoke- \*\* > **thinksnow** , if want to debate seriously (snicker) the oppression of frat boys, please open a thread in GD. But since this is a Pit thread, well, fuck off. Just so we’re clear, I don’t recall ever saying that members of Fraternal organizations were oppressed (would that be a straw man?) What I have been saying is pretty well covered throughout the last page and, it was my understanding, a general consensus had been reached among the rational-minded involved. Thanks for playing, though, your post was everything I’d hoped and dreamed it could be. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2001, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924/80 "2001-11-08T17:57:23Z")
From a friend: > [@](#): > > So far two students have been expelled (the Klansman and the lynchee), 16 are suspended pending investigation, another has withdrawn voluntarily, and in addition to an investigation by the university both fraternities are in deep doo-doo with their national chapters. The NAACP basically says “it’s not enough” and demands that everybody who was at the party be expelled and everybody in either fraternity put on probation, both fraternities be banished from campus for not less than five years, [and] that a civil suit be filed against the fraternities by the college and the black fraternities they were mocking. What do you think? Too harsh? Not harsh enough? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprise-the-souths-reputation-hijacked-by-its-own-people-again/91924.md?page=5)