# Surprising things that are not vegan-compliant **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 9, 2024, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprising-things-that-are-not-vegan-compliant/1008603 "2024-10-09T14:06:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2024, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprising-things-that-are-not-vegan-compliant/1008603/1 "2024-10-09T14:06:24Z")
NB: This thread is not for discussion or debate about the vegan lifestyle. The topic is ‘Surprising things that are not vegan-compliant’. It may be more suited for Factual Questions, but here it is. Yesterday I learned that these things are not compatible with the vegan lifestyle: - [Photographic film.](https://fstoppers.com/film/film-isnt-vegan-why-you-should-potentially-reconsider-shooting-it-if-you-care-448606) (Contains gelatine) - [Most printer ink.](https://www.theseedcardcompany.com/blogs/news/vegan-friendly-ink-printing-that-doesn-t-cost-the-earth) (Contains glycerine, gelatine, bone chars, beetle shellack) As a native Californian, I have a passing acquaintance with almonds. [Virtually _all_ almond trees rely on bees for pollination.](https://www.gardeningknowhow.com/edible/nut-trees/almonds/how-are-almond-trees-pollinated.htm) ‘Commercial growers in California pay to rent hives during the almond bloom.’ (And of course the beekeepers harvest the honey.) So while almond milk itself does not contain animal products, and a quick search indicates it is indeed vegan, almonds and almond milk rely on the use of animals to produce the products. (This is probably one of those ‘You have to draw the line _somewhere!_’ things, but this isn’t the thread to debate that.) Aside from photographic film and most printer ink, and possibly almond products depending on where you draw the line, what are other things that you never suspected contain animal products? ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2024, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprising-things-that-are-not-vegan-compliant/1008603/2 "2024-10-09T14:18:28Z")
Petroleum. (Though “fossil fuels” is a clue.) ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2024, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprising-things-that-are-not-vegan-compliant/1008603/3 "2024-10-09T14:22:03Z")
Many wines and ales use isinglass as a clearing agent. Isinglass comes from fish swim-bladders. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2024, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprising-things-that-are-not-vegan-compliant/1008603/4 "2024-10-09T14:39:50Z")
White sugar often uses bone-derived charcoal to remove color, so it can often not be vegan. > [@DPRK](#): > > Petroleum. (Though “fossil fuels” is a clue.) I always thought veganism was all about animal exploitation, and if they’ve been dead for tens of millions of years before man was even a species, how are we exploiting those animals in petroleum? (which was mostly ancient zooplankton and algae, from what I understand) ---
**Author:** ![FloatyGimpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/floatygimpy/32/7750_2.png) [@FloatyGimpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FloatyGimpy)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2024, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprising-things-that-are-not-vegan-compliant/1008603/5 "2024-10-09T15:05:23Z")
As a lifelong vegetarian and occasional vegan I have some knowledge about this. The one that always surprises people is that Oreos _are_ vegan. Also whey or whey protein is in freaking everything. ---
**Author:** ![Bayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bayaker/32/3454_2.png) [@Bayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2024, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprising-things-that-are-not-vegan-compliant/1008603/6 "2024-10-09T15:10:28Z")
If you use the almond example, wouldn’t that also exclude most fruits and vegetables? While not all farms use domesticated(?) bees, the practice is very common, and I don’t think a vegan person would have any way of knowing if orange A vs. orange B was or was not pollinated by an owned hive of bees rather than the free-in-nature variety. Even cotton growers now sometimes use bees. Cotton is self-pollinating, but bees can increase the yield. Hard core vegans will have to wear scratchy hemp fruit-of-the-looms. (No, bees do not pollinate hemp) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2024, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprising-things-that-are-not-vegan-compliant/1008603/7 "2024-10-09T15:12:24Z")
> [@Bayaker](#): > > If you use the almond example, wouldn’t that also exclude most fruits and vegetables? I think this falls under ‘Where do you draw the line?’ as opposed to ‘Hey, I didn’t know that contained animal products!’ (Yes, I know I brought up almonds. ☹ ) ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2024, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprising-things-that-are-not-vegan-compliant/1008603/8 "2024-10-09T15:15:18Z")
I don’t think anyone imagines those zooplankton were murdered by humans. Just that it is a (possibly) surprising animal product. > [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > > [@Bayaker](#): > > > > If you use the almond example, wouldn’t that also exclude most fruits and vegetables? > > I think this falls under ‘Where do you draw the line?’ as opposed to ‘Hey, I didn’t know that contained animal products!’ (Yes, I know I brought up almonds. ☹ ) If you take as an example a strict Jain diet, the “line” is non-violence to organisms. So, e.g., potatoes, garlic, onions, etc. are out. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2024, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprising-things-that-are-not-vegan-compliant/1008603/9 "2024-10-09T15:15:40Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Contains glycerine I’d have thought it would be vegetable glycerine since that is the most common kind. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2024, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprising-things-that-are-not-vegan-compliant/1008603/10 "2024-10-09T15:17:16Z")
From the link in the OP: > Modern mass market inks are generally petroleum oil based, they also contain glycerine from animal fat Yep. I was surprised. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2024, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprising-things-that-are-not-vegan-compliant/1008603/11 "2024-10-09T15:17:44Z")
Yeah, if petroleum counts as a product containing animals, so does most limestone (and by extension, cement and concrete) ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2024, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprising-things-that-are-not-vegan-compliant/1008603/12 "2024-10-09T16:25:51Z")
Many fruits typically have pollinating insects or larvae in them, and all soils will have both living arthropods and various clades of worms (which will be injured or killed by tilling and the application of pesticides), and of course the residues of dead animals in various states of decomposition and humification. Limestone is really made by precipitation and compaction of the calcium residues which certainly include the exoskeletons of molluscs and reef structures constructed to house corals but it can be precipitated from non-living sources. There are essentially no products in modern use that doesn’t in some way utilize material from living or previously-living animal organisms, or displace them in order to extract and refine material resources, so if your definition of “vegan” precludes anything that injures or kills microscopic animals it is literally impossible to keep living. Most definitions of veganism draw the line at ‘exploiting’ animals complex enough to have a brain (or at least a complex central nervous system) under the thesis that they have some level of sentience, causing them to experience pain and fear. Using naturally occurring animal wastes and residues, or the products of instinctual animal ‘labor’ such as pollination is accepted. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2024, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprising-things-that-are-not-vegan-compliant/1008603/13 "2024-10-09T16:55:15Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Limestone is really made by precipitation and compaction of the calcium residues which certainly include the exoskeletons of molluscs and reef structures constructed to house corals but it can be precipitated from non-living sources. Hence ‘most’. Most limestone is biogenic and contains the remains of molluscs and other invertebrates. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2024, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprising-things-that-are-not-vegan-compliant/1008603/14 "2024-10-09T17:13:40Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > There are essentially no products in modern use that doesn’t in some way utilize material from living or previously-living animal organisms Yeah, I mean ultimately nearly everything has been recycled and mixed up a whole lot. Not only does a carrot contain materials derived from previously living animals, it’s highly likely some of those animals were human beings. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2024, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprising-things-that-are-not-vegan-compliant/1008603/15 "2024-10-10T19:48:43Z")
> [@bump](#): > > White sugar often uses bone-derived charcoal to remove color, so it can often not be vegan. > > > [@DPRK](#): > > > > Petroleum. (Though “fossil fuels” is a clue.) > > I always thought veganism was all about animal exploitation, and if they’ve been dead for tens of millions of years before man was even a species, how are we exploiting those animals in petroleum? (which was mostly ancient zooplankton and algae, from what I understand) The “dead past” is indistinguishable from “the living present.” Where exactly does the vegan who speaks for **EVERY VEGAN EVER** draw that line? ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2024, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprising-things-that-are-not-vegan-compliant/1008603/16 "2024-10-10T19:54:46Z")
I suppose figs would be right out, since they’re not only pollinated by fig wasps, the wasps die inside the fig so you’re eating (mostly dissolved) wasp corpses when you eat a fig. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2024, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprising-things-that-are-not-vegan-compliant/1008603/17 "2024-10-10T20:07:57Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Not only does a carrot contain materials derived from previously living animals, it’s highly likely some of those animals were human beings. So Elmer Fudd was justified in hunting down that human-eating monster. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2024, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprising-things-that-are-not-vegan-compliant/1008603/18 "2024-10-10T20:37:33Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > The “dead past” is indistinguishable from “the living present.” Yeah, OK [Doctor Manhattan](https://preview.redd.it/nd3l0v67ytw31.jpg?auto=webp&s=3a07e150011c6d793b2ef591c7ff6233f550c429)! 😁 > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Where exactly does the vegan who speaks for **EVERY VEGAN EVER** draw that line? As I understand it, veganism started out with a group of vegetarians who, on ethical grounds, decided they should object to the use of eggs and dairy, and this grew into a more general ‘don’t exploit animals’ principle. Most vegans seem to interpret this as not taking explicit advantage of _anything that necessitates the death, harm or keeping-in-captivity of any organism in the animal kingdom_. The people who drew up these guidelines formed [The Vegan Society](https://www.vegansociety.com/about-us/history) - so if anyone defines the principles, I think it would be them. Keeping of bees for the purpose of pollination and/or harvesting their honey is considered wrong by the Vegan Society, on the keeping-in-captivity grounds, but also because beekeeping pretty inevitably involves culling at some point or other. Nature doesn’t like bright dividing lines though and so there will always be edge cases that are challenging. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2024, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprising-things-that-are-not-vegan-compliant/1008603/19 "2024-10-10T21:15:47Z")
From the OP: > [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > NB: This thread is not for discussion or debate about the vegan lifestyle. The topic is ‘Surprising things that are not vegan-compliant’. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2024, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprising-things-that-are-not-vegan-compliant/1008603/20 "2024-10-10T21:25:16Z")
You can’t really discuss things that are not compliant without a sense of what ‘compliance’ means. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/surprising-things-that-are-not-vegan-compliant/1008603.md?page=2)